[shan_xoxox]

I have had my 45 gallon tank for about 8 months now and my lemon angel and black damsel have sort of blurred white spots on their fins. The place I go for my fish suggested a cleaner shrimp who has been on top of them since I got him (about 4 days now). The spots seem to be getting more abundant. I don't want to use chemicals because I have many inverts (brittle star, mushrooms, snails, hermits, pencil urchin) . Any suggestions? Perhaps a second cleaner shrimp? I'm new to this and don't want to lose all my fish!!!

[pogodzib]

Welcome to RB Shannon! What part of WI are you from?

As for your ich problems. You can try adding garlic extract to your fish food to boost there immune system, but the only two proven ways to treat ich that will work 100% of the time, if done correctly, is treating using copper or hyposalinity. Either method needs to be done in a quarantine tank. To ensure that it won't come back, you need to treat all of your fish in the q-tank and level your main display tank fishless for 6-8 weeks. I prefer the hyposalinity method over copper for ich, but either method will work if done properly. There are no reef safe ich medicines, or inverts that will cure ich.

Do a search for ich, copper, & hyposalinity and your sure to find a ton of questions and answers.

[shan_xoxox]

Thanks, I am from Green Bay, WI. I went to my local fish store last night and they gave me a product called rid ich. She told me it's safe for inverts. If it doesn't work I fear I will have to qt. But do I leave my inverts in the display tank? Are they affected by the disease as well? My lemon angel is losing all color. I think they are all going to die

[spanko]

Just some friendly advise. Most I think will agree that there is not an effective display tank treatment for ICH. You need to get them to a QT if you are going to really beat this, then leave your display tank fallow, fish less, for the 6-8 weeks that pogodzib talked about. Sounds like the Angel is probably going to die soon if the color is fading on it. Inverts do not get Ich, but they can carry it just like rocks and coral or anything else can. Effectively killing all Ich in the tank means taking away what it actually feeds on and that is the fish. Their life cycle will completely die off in the 6-8 week time frame.

[shan_xoxox]

Thanks Spanko, I was really hoping for the easier cure. I have invested so much $$ into my tank lately I'm actually too broke to buy an extra heater and filter for the qt. I may have to dip into savings I guess otherwise I will lose them all I fear. I think my next tank will be only inverts and corals. That way I don't have to worry about ich.

[spanko]

Are those the only two fish in the tank? If so I personally would let it run it's course in the display. Like I said looks like the angel may be a goner and even though the damsel is a fairly hardy fish and may make it through you may be better off getting rid of it anyway because as it ages it will become a terror in the tank. In other words leave it alone, feed food laced with garlic to enhance their immune system and see how it goes. If they both die then leave the tank fallow for 6 - 8 weeks and give it a go again.
JMO

[shan_xoxox]

No I have many other fish in there. I have 1 squirrelfish, 2 clownfish, 1 wrasse, 1 scooter blenny, 1 really beautiful pink fish with polka dots but don't know it's name, banded shrimp, cleaner shrimp, pencil urchin, and brittle star.

[shan_xoxox]

When I qt do I treat the fish with chems? Or just let them sit.

[spanko]

Treatment should either be copper based medication or hyposalinity. Unfortunately your display now has Ich. All of the fish in there are now subject to getting the parasite. The only way to truly rid the tank of it is to remove all the fish. To me this would be a daunting procedure and one in which I would have to weigh very heavily. Where to put them all for the next six weeks? How to catch them all to get the out without taking the entire tank apart? I have not had to face this type of a problem so I cannot say what I would do for sure in your case. Can only hope that someone else that has been here before posts their experience with it and it can give you some sort of action plan.
Sorry to be such a downer here Shannon. With that all said I think that you have compromised the inhabitants immune system through stress. The eight fish you have in the tank may have caused this stress and may in fact be too many for the 45 gallon.
I do wish you well in this and please keep updating here to help us all in the future with what you do to overcome this.

Now just my opinion here, if it were me in this circumstance, as I think a little more on it, I would thin out the number of fish I have and work on treating the rest with hypo in a QT and leave the tank fishless for the requisite time. Hard decision there but for the amount of time and money we put into our systems we need to make it as correct as we can.

[shan_xoxox]

When I qt do I treat the fish with chems? Or just let them sit.

[shan_xoxox]

Hey thanks Henry, I knew when I started this hobby that is wasn't going to be easy. That's why there's not that many people who do it. I may have put too many fish in my 45. They were all doing so well and I was finally "complete" The lemon was the last one and I was done buying. I have decided to leave work early and do a qt. I have a 35 gallon in the basement that I will use to qt. I had is stored until I move, but looks like its coming upstairs!! I will have to disassemble everything to catch the buggers without too much stress.

Big night ahead of me and I'll post any news (not saying anyone really wants to know but maybe I'll learn something that I can share).

[spanko]

Great plan Shannon. I hope all goes well tonight. Have you got anyone to help with the tear down? Look at it this way a chance to do some reaquascaping!

[shan_xoxox]

No I'm flying solo. My boyfriend is a brat. He doesn't want to do that work! He has a 100 gal. and he takes care of his tank and I take care of mine. (a bit childish at times!) But I will be a'ok. It's only been up for about 8 months so it shouldn't be too hard to take apart. I appreaciate the help and concern!! It's a learning experience. I just hope a possible disaster doesn't turn me off saltwater aquariums.

[pogodzib]

You are going to find that catching ALL of the fish will be a pain. One suggestion that I have that is to use some type of divider to split the tank in half. Once that is done, you can take all of the rock and corals from one side and put it into the other half, remove the fish from that half, and then switch everything back to the other side and repeat. Unfortunately, it can be a pain, but it is the only way to be certain you will get rid of ich once and for all. When you catch the angel, or any other fish with major ich on it, do a 3-5 minute freshwater dip on it in water that is a couple degrees warmer than your tank water. This will help to get some of the ich parasites off of it and give it a better chance to survive.

BTW - Rid ich is, for the most part, reef safe, but it won't get rid of the ich parasite.

[spanko]

Brian, help her with the FW dip. Should it be ph matched to the tank water, ro\di or distilled good, etc.
Thank you.....

[shan_xoxox]

Yeah all I have is tap water. I usually leave it sit for like 3 days so the chlorine is out of it. I can buy distilled at the store tonight though. I'm concerned about filling my 35 gal. I don't have any water that's purified. I was just gonna use my tap and hope for the best. eek.

[shan_xoxox]

I'm think I'm gonna try garlic and water changes for one more day then maybe do the qt. No time Thanks a lot guys !!

[pogodzib]

I like to use standard, dechlorinated tap water for my FW dips since pure RO/DI water is actually harsh since it is lacking all minerals. I take a bucket of the water and adjust it to make the temp a couple degrees higher than the tank temp, usually around 82 degrees. From there, I add a tiny bit of baking soda to buffer the tap water to a pH that is the same as the tank's pH. From there, place the sick fish into the water and observe it to make sure that the fish is going alright. It is not uncommon for the fish to lay on the bottom of the bucket like it is going to die. Just make sure that it's gills remain moving. I don't worry about the fish laying on the bottom and have never killed a fish because of doing a FW dip. Typically, I feel that a 3 minute dip is the shortest that is beneficial and a 5 minute dip is the best length for time. Once the time is up, remove the fish and place it into your q-tank.

[Wizarwar]

I have used Rid Ich twice before on 1 of my 44gal pent tanks, the stuff is liquid gold. Just 2 of the 10 fish had it when I treated but I dosed the whole tank( I had no QT). After just two dosings in the required treatment tract...the blisters were gone. It's like taking antiBiotics to humans though, you have to finish dosing even after signs and symptoms have disappeared. Good Luck! Mike.

[pogodzib]

I beg to differ, I've tested Rid Ich out with poor results. I'd give you a free bottle, but it isn't worth the shipping cost. IMO, one of the reasons why so there more ich treatments available compared to treatments for other types of diseases or parasites is because the spots go away on there own within a few days of showing up. Many people think that the chemicals are working because the ich disappeared when usually it is just because of the natural life cycle of the parasite. The issue then becomes what will happen when the same stage of the cycle appears for the next go around approx. 7 days later. Either the fish's immune system is strong enough to win the battle and prevent it from showing up (even though it is still in the system) or ich will show up again, only way worse. If it does show up again, which it usually does, the fish may be too weak to survive proper treatment at that point and may end up dying. I prefer and highly recommend treating the fish using one of the two proven methods that will work EVERY time, copper or hyposalinity, right away so you don't need to worry about the fish getting too weak for treatment and you can get ich out of your system for good.

[spanko]

Hee Hee or at least until the next time it is introduced to the system.

[shan_xoxox]

Yeah I think I'm going to do the QT. Not sure if I'm going to do it tonight or not yet. I did put that Rid Ich in yesterday but it makes sense that it would seemingly go away due to the cycle of the parasite. I spoke with my LFS store as well as it seems like everyone has strong opinions on this topic, but few are the same!! It is a big project and I might wait until the weekend and I really really hope that's not too late. Thanks again!

[Wizarwar]

I can only offer advice from my personel experience, Rid Ich worked fine for me...knowing how the infestation cycles is key and you have to get the ctitters after the cysts have erupted while the parasitic pupa are free swimming and exposed. Anyway...I am in no way an expert on disease control, all I can do is offer my opinion on a certain circumstance. The most cost effective way at that time that worked for me was to treat with Rid Ich. One of my clown loaches and my Burmese Border loach cleared up in a few days with no re-occurance of the disese. Several months later however, I had to treat again as my red tailed shark had some suspicious spots on it. I hate chemicals in my tanks for any reason and would do any homeopathic remedy possible first. That was fresh water, so I would have to go with the advice of a more experienced saltwater keeper here. Good Luck! Mike.

[shan_xoxox]

Well the lemon angel was upside down dead when I got home last night The other fish seemed to be better though. Not sure if I should see if they tough it out or do the qt. The angel was by far the worst and can't save her now.

[spanko]

JMO if you don't QT and let the display go fallow you will be assured of ICH remaining in the tank to attack any fish in the future that may have a compromised immune system. This is a chance only you can decide if you want to take.