[Poppinthekap]

Okay well, I am just starting today to quarantine all my fish after a major Ich outbreak in my display tank and I figured I would keep a running thread detailing all of my journey with this.

I am taking all my fish from my 125:
Purple Tang
Powder Brown Tang
Clown Tang
Sailfin Tang
Regal Blue Tang
Sand Goby
Tomato Clown
Scooter Blenny
2x Neon Goby
Cleaner Wrasse

and putting them into my 20 gal long QT tank. I realize this is a squeeze but I don't have a lot of options.

I will be treating the QT tank by the hyposalinity method.

Day 1 - So far I have moved 4 of the 5 tangs (no regal blue) and the Sand Goby to the QT tank and put turbo start into the QT to counter toxins. I intend to move more fish later today when I am sure toxins are still low, and hope I can start hyposalinity tonight

Poppinthekap

[jimw369]

Just for the record can you give us your QT set up. You are going to be doing water changes quite often unless you have a skimmer hooked up to the 20 gal. Even then water changes are going to ne necessary. When doing the Hypo you need to keep and eye on the amonia (hence the water changes) and since the water changes are prob going to be frequent you will want to keep an eye on the SG and PH also. Measuring your SG accurately with an refractometer is a must. Take your SG down over a few days and back up over a week when you think the treatment has been effective usually 5-6 weeks.

I am a big believer in Hyposalinity and it has worked well for me. Also keep in mind that an ounce of prevention is worth 100lbs of cure in saltwater. All those fish especially the tangs needed to be ran thru hypo or copper before entering your DT. Combine that with that many tangs in a 75 there is going to be some stress between the fish. Not saying it cant be done...just saying that you need to be prepared. Good luck and Im looking forward to this thread.

[Poppinthekap]

Found the cleaner wrasse dead this afternoon, he must have died overnight, cause of death is unknown. He was only added 2 days ago to help combat the ich, may have just been a bad fish, any way thats one less fish for the 20 gal squeeze.

Just checked the levels in the QT and all 3 major toxins are slightly up, nothing too major but I am about to do a 10-20% water change to take that down.

I would like to try to get the 5 other fish in the QT tonight so I can begin taking down the salinity. I just bought the refractometer from my LFS. Salinity is at 1.021 SG or 27 PPT.

Poppinthekap

P.S. Thanks for the reply Jim! The DT is a 125 though, not a 75 and it is long (6ft) so it is pretty ample swimming room for the tangs. Also, thanks for all the advice, we (mom and I, I'm only 17 =P) definitely learned our lesson about QTing fish before we introduce them.

[Poppinthekap]

Oh I forgot to tell you my set up, I have an Eheim canister filter on it that I used on my old 75 so it should do a pretty good job. I have an extra Eheim drop in skimmer but I am afraid that it will take away much needed tank volume.

I just did the water change. 5 gallons, 20-25% with filter volume. Hopefully that takes care of the toxins.

Poppinthekap

[Poppinthekap]

Just caught the regal blue finally! I feel so accomplished, he was easily the hardest to catch. He is acclimating now. Now all I have to catch is Tomato Clown, 2x neon gobies, anthias, and scooter blenny. I just realized I did not mention the anthias in the above post.

Poppinthekap

[jimw369]

Thats great news to hear Alex. The bigger tank and all. Unfortunately most of us learn the hardway. Keep us informed!

[Poppinthekap]

After Day 1 I got all of the fish out except for the anthias, he is really giving me trouble. I just gave up (midnight). I will have to get him tomorrow morning.

I took out about 3 gallons from the QT and replace with RO water, salinity lowered.

Poppinthekap

[Poppinthekap]

Alright, those 3 gallons last night brought the PPT in the QT from 30 to 27.

As of 11:05 this morning, I finally caught the anthias, that means all of the fish are now in the QT.

All of the fish seem to be doing well, the powder brown and regal blue have the worst cases of ich.

I just performed a 5 gallon water change, adding RO water again taking the PPT from 26 to 19 (1.020 SG to 1.014

[jimw369]

Thats an awful big jump in SG to do all at once. Slow as you go my friend...patience is key. Make sure you keep the water oxygenated pretty well. A small PH breaking the surface of the water creating some bubbles will help tremendously.

[unclejed]

Hey Alex, I sure wish you would have consulted us before you did anything as drastic as what you are doing! Do you realize how much more stress you are putting your fish through only exacerbating the problem? Many of us do not believe in QTs for that exact reason. Those who do QT have ich out breaks any way from time to time. The Tomato clown was probably causing a lot of the stress in the tank (probably at night). Most of us have learned that you treat ich by boosting the fishes immune system. Marine-Max (all natural) is the product I use. I don't mean to sound scolding (if I do) but I am afraid this is going to spiral down on you. That is highly inadvisable to cram all those fish in that small of a tank, which will result in fighting and fatal levels of stress.

[Poppinthekap]

Thanks for all the advice. Unclejed, since I am already in this process I am going to keep trying it, I do believe it is my best bet. The fish actually seem less agressive in the 20 than they did in the 125 suprisingly.

Jim, thanks, I will slow it down. I will do smaller changes and longer intervals although I heard salinity going down is hardly stressful on them. Do you think a Maxi Jet will help with oxygen? That's all I have extra right now.

[pogodzib]

I feel that everyone should be quarantining 90%+ of the fish sold to aquarists. There are only a few different types of fish that I would recommend not placing in a q-tank because of their eating habits.

You are right that lowering the SG quickly is not that big of a deal. In fact, if the fish is covered with ich, I'd much rather have the salinity drop quickly than having the fish suffer from the ich being on it. Usually I take 2 days to go from 1.025 to 1.015 and than another 2-3 days to get down to 1.009, however I try to do two small water changes per day while dropping or raising the salinity. Once the fish has been in hyposalinity treatment for 6 weeks without any signs of ich, you can SLOWLY raise the salinity back up over the course of a week.

BTW - Anything pointing at the surface of the water or injecting air into the water helps to keep the water oxygenated.

BTW2 - Since I started quarantining all of my new fish 8 years ago, I have never have ich show up in my main display tanks. Having a proper q-tank and doing things correctly can keep ich out of your display tank permanently.

[Poppinthekap]

Hey thanks alot pog! I have just dropped the salinity again down to 15 PPT (1.012 SG) and I bought an extra jet which includes and air valve so their are some air bubbles coming out of the jet and circulating. My fishes gills have slowed dramatically which is great news. I'm glad you guys reminded me of that. I thought the output of my eheim would have been enough.

Just a couple more questions, what salinity do you guys recommend for successful hyposalinity? I was planning on 11 PPT (1.008 SG). And how long can I expect before the Ich disappears and I can begin the 4-6 week countdown?

[jimw369]

Originally Posted by unclejed

Hey Alex, I sure wish you would have consulted us before you did anything as drastic as what you are doing! Do you realize how much more stress you are putting your fish through only exacerbating the problem? Many of us do not believe in QTs for that exact reason. Those who do QT have ich out breaks any way from time to time. The Tomato clown was probably causing a lot of the stress in the tank (probably at night). Most of us have learned that you treat ich by boosting the fishes immune system. Marine-Max (all natural) is the product I use. I don't mean to sound scolding (if I do) but I am afraid this is going to spiral down on you. That is highly inadvisable to cram all those fish in that small of a tank, which will result in fighting and fatal levels of stress.

Leon...I have heard you have an LFS is that true? Do you use the Marine-Max there?

[Poppinthekap]

Alright end of day 2, PPT is 13 (SG 1.010-1.011). Hopefully Ich will start disappearing.

[unclejed]

Originally Posted by jimw369

Leon...I have heard you have an LFS is that true? Do you use the Marine-Max there?

I do not own one. I use the Marine-Max here at home.
Pog, Ich is always in the display, healthy fish (good immune system) keep it at bay along with other diseases. Like people, some never get a cold or flu (or rarely) because their immune systems aren't compromised.

[jimw369]

Originally Posted by unclejed

I do not own one. I use the Marine-Max here at home.
Pog, Ich is always in the display, healthy fish (good immune system) keep it at bay along with other diseases. Like people, some never get a cold or flu (or rarely) because their immune systems aren't compromised.

My DT has never had a fish in it that hasnt been run thru hyposalinity. Ive never had ich. Now thats been 2 years and 12 fish and only 1 tang which is a blue hippo so my experience is limited. What I do see is that everyone that doesnt run hypo or copper treatments has ich problems at one time or another. While some prefer to use the many off the shelf remedies for ich treatments people still keep posting asking for help. Boosting fishes immune system?...OK...Ill buy that but there is no proof that Garlic or anything I know of does that. I do use garlic in my food and Metronidazole just in case it works.

Leon...do you QT your corals?

So...you work at a LFS?

[Poppinthekap]

The clown tang is on his last leg unfortunately. He is laying on his side breathing heavily, he did have the worst case of ich, maybe he can pull out of it but at this point it seems unlikely.

I believe my hyposalinity is a little under what it should be (9 PPT 1.007 SG). Any suggestions?

My pH has been on a roller coaster, it is really low now so I am dripping in high pH water.

Also all my fish are breathing heavy, yikes, any thoughts?

Poppinthekap

[Poppinthekap]

I think I need to euthanize my clown tang, he really is looking bad, getting pushed throughout the tank by the jet and sucked against the filter intake. To top it off my purple tang is biting his tail like crazy, I think dipping him in freezing cold water would be the most painless.

[Poppinthekap]

Okay, the clown tang is officially deceased. Everyone else looks better, I hope that's our last death.

Peace, Poppinthekap

[jimw369]

Keep water oxygenated. You will need to test your water everyday and yes .007 is too low That is why we said an accurate refractometer must be used. 1.009 exactly... no lower. With that many fish in a small QT you will have to stay on top of water params. Testing at least once a day for ammonia is a must. Remember you dropped the SG very fast on those fish. When we acclimate fish we do it slowly usually drip by drip. Dropping the SG 15 points in a day is a bit fast for my likes. Unclejed is correct when he says too many fish for that small a tank but thats what you chose to put them in so now we have to work with it. Oxygen, ammonia, SG and Ph. Got to keep those parameters where they need to be and its going to be tough with all the small water changes you are probably going to do. Keep talkin to us...

[unclejed]

Originally Posted by jimw369

My DT has never had a fish in it that hasn't been run thru hypo salinity. Ive never had ich. Now thats been 2 years and 12 fish and only 1 tang which is a blue hippo so my experience is limited. What I do see is that everyone that doesn't run hypo or copper treatments has ich problems at one time or another. While some prefer to use the many off the shelf remedies for ich treatments people still keep posting asking for help. Boosting fishes immune system?...OK...Ill buy that but there is no proof that Garlic or anything I know of does that. I do use garlic in my food and Metronidazole just in case it works.

Leon...do you QT your corals?

So...you work at a LFS?

No, I have never dipped or QTd a coral (remember, I don't believe in QTs) and no I do work at a LFS, although as much as I'm in the 4 close to me I should, being retired early and all.

[pogodzib]

Originally Posted by unclejed

I do not own one. I use the Marine-Max here at home.
Pog, Ich is always in the display, healthy fish (good immune system) keep it at bay along with other diseases. Like people, some never get a cold or flu (or rarely) because their immune systems aren't compromised.

Sorry Leon, I disagree. I, and many others, believe that you can keep the ich parasite out of tanks if you quarantine your new additions correctly.

Originally Posted by Poppinthekap

Hey thanks alot pog! I have just dropped the salinity again down to 15 PPT (1.012 SG) and I bought an extra jet which includes and air valve so their are some air bubbles coming out of the jet and circulating. My fishes gills have slowed dramatically which is great news. I'm glad you guys reminded me of that. I thought the output of my eheim would have been enough.

Just a couple more questions, what salinity do you guys recommend for successful hyposalinity? I was planning on 11 PPT (1.008 SG). And how long can I expect before the Ich disappears and I can begin the 4-6 week countdown?

Sorry for not being around to help you out the past couple days to help your out Alex. As I stated before, you can drop the salinity about 0.005 per day, but I try not to go any more than that. The reason why you want to make sure that you are using a refractometer when doing the hyposalinity treatment is because there is a fine line between a treatment that works, compared to if the salinity is too low and kills the fish or if it is too high and the ich survives. Anywhere between 1.008-1.010 works with killing the ich and your fish can survive just fine. I've treated many dozens of sick fish using the hyposalinity method and it will always work without killing the fish if you don't drop/rise the salinity too fast and the fish isn't already too weakened from ich. With the case of your deceased fish, it could have been caused from either case, having a ammonia spike in the newly setup q-tank, or the water may not have had enough oxygen which make the already weakened fish have to struggle to breath.

As for the salinity, 1.009 is recommended. The ich should disappear within days of the salinity being down to 1.009 and not return. Once in a while a few spots will return after a week. After you last see spots in the fish, you can begin counting the 6 week period.

[Poppinthekap]

Thanks again guys, I am at 1.009-1.010 right now which is great.

I am sorry to say that my anthias has now also passed away, I was not home as much as my mom was today so I am not entirely sure of all the details at the moment.

After talking to my LFS, I now have put an old Tunze skimmer into the QT to reduce toxins and increase oxygen.

I truly believe that will be the last fish to die, my powder brown and regal blue, which were my worst are showing improvements. I might say my sailfin looks the worst right now, but mostly because of pieces bitten out of his fin, but he still is very alert and active.

Keep the advice coming!

Peace,
Poppinthekap

[unclejed]

Well Brian, I may have to re-think my position. After reading your rebuttal, I dug up this article; ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site - Reference - Marine "Ich" Very informative and I am almost convinced. I need to dig a little deeper to see if ich can survive dormant in a fish (my original thinking) or not. Anyway, that's what this is all about, learning. Alex, this is a good read, check it out.