[Hosser]

DISCLAIMER; I am in no way writing this as personal attack on anyone using, supporting the use of, contemplating the use of high heat lights. Its simply something to think about and discuss.

Would we not all agree that our livestocks health and vitality are of upmost in our mindset when keeping a SW tank? We all know that the majority of the corals we keep need light, rather it be low,moderate, or high. Our fish on the other do not for the most part and the lights then are for our enjoyment that bring out the fish's colors.

We painstakingly prepare foods and water and test endlessly to care for these wonderful creatures. We buy them spcecial additives and treat them as our own children (sometimes better). Now say we buy a certain piece of equipment, in which we need more equipment to make that one function without killing our tanks inhabitants, in so doing we have taken a simple almost no risk involved other than user error set up and changed it to if one thing goes wrong we can lose everything.

Thus is the case I have observed in my short time mulling over the risk involved with high heat lights. (halides in particular). Power compacts get warm but for the most part never hot enough to raise the water so high it can cause death to our inhabitants. However with halides I have noticed that most of the time a chiller is needed.....yes needed, because of the heat created by the lamp warming the water in upwards of 100 degrees. My limited knowledge of corals lead me to looking in to which corals we keep can handle these temps.....my conclusion, few. Now corals arent the only concern for us aquarists. We have fish, the average ocean temp in Hawaii being 71-81 degrees . The Keys 69-87, courtesy of the NOAA. Suggests that at a reef temperatures 10-15 degrees warmer would be intolerable to them.

So I ask for a discussion, well thought out please and again this is in no way to offend anyone I want a good clean impersonal discussion. Here is my personal view.

I personally find the descision to use a halide light to be more controversial when its thought about in this way. There is a differance between surviving, living, and thriving. We get confused I believe when we think of quick growth as a vital componant to its life. (If corals grew as fast in the wild on a reef as they do in our tanks I believe we would be in decent shape on them). Our goal as aquarists should be more at keeping one thing thriving whilest not risking its life as a trade off for our personal pleasure as in coral growth. Things may not grow as fast as WE want them too, but isnt this hobby about patience and the joy we get out of watching our tank grow and ejnoy its surrealism.
Now with growth especially quick growth for people so concerned about stress on livestock we have to start "fragging" or pruning our quickly grown corals which causes stress no doubt.
Now for my main concern....malfunction. In most cases a chiller is needed. Now this is a non essential part of the marine aquarium experience. Most people need to heat their tanks. Malfunction can come from many things in an aquarium but how often does it actually result in direct death if it wasnt user error?
See water movement is a must, filtration is a must, electricity is a must, and light is a must but there is no necessity in a light that needs extra equipment. Success in a marine tank isnt how fast something grows, or how many frags we have to get out of it over the course of a year or how much we have invested. Success in a marine tank is simply put..... to apease our eyes with our hard and dedicated work. Others may gawk, be amazed in awe, while some will say it could be better. You have to be happy with it which is why the choice in any equipment is yours. But along with that comes responsibility, and if you belong to a forum like this also comes a little bit of nit picking.
Well thats my opinion, now I would love to have discussion on this. Id like to hear success stories with halides, I like to see readings comparisons form people who have used differant lights or have instruments Im not lucky enough to have. Id like to hear horror stories from equipment. And Id like to hear after reading this if you honestly feel the extra growth, equipment, money and risk is worth it.

Disclaimer apllies throughout.
Hoss

[geekdafied]

First off, Metal Halides when used properly, do not put that much heat into your tank. They are reccomended to be put 10-12"s above your tank. You do not need Metal Halides unless you are keeping SPS corals (even then T5HO's will work but dont look as pretty). If you're keeping SPS corals, then you know you need a lot of flow, a lot of flow will cause a lot of surface agitation thus causing evaporative cooling(look it up). Evaporative cooling is a VERY effiecient way of cooling water which is why people sometimes put fans on the top of their tanks. If you're properly using Metal Halides up to 250w, there is no need for a chiller. 400w Metal Halide or more, is a different story, but really, how many people use them?

A chiller is a piece of equipment and can malfunction, but a heater is more likely to malfunction then a chiller (Ive gone through several of them). Ive lost more corals cause of heater malfunctions then most people will ever have. (300 SPS frags boiled in a 30 min time frame).

A inline chiller is basically a small heat hump, similar to whats used on homes. Its built to last for years and usually warrantied for several years.

I persoanlly use Metal halides and T5HO's, and have used everything else out there except LEDs. PC's get hot, real hot, and are not very intense. I had a 75g that I had a 260w PC light on, my temp stayed around 80-82 and I evaporated 13g a week. I switched it to T5HO, and my temp droped to a constant 78 (which is where my heater is set) and went down to 3g a week evaporation.

When it comes to choosing lights based on watts, you need to know what "watts" are. A watt is how much electricity that it consumes. 250 watts, are exactly that, 250watts used in an hour. It has nothing to do with the lights intensity, thats measured in Lumens/LUX/PAR.

Back to the topic at hand... I have never lost a single coral due to MEtal Halides, Im sure I have because the lack of them in the beginning. I run 2x250w Lumen brights on 110g stock tank, evap about 5g a week, and the lights are about 12" off the surface, and keep everything in it from acro's to mushrooms. Ive never had a heat issue with that tank.

IMHO, your post seems like its coming from somebody who does not have enough experience with Reef Aquaria. Ive been doing this a long time and have worked in every aspect of the industry except actual collecting. Ive worked in a LFS, had my own online store, coral farming and I now work for a global transhipper as the southeastern sales manager for the company. I still have several personal tanks as Ive mentioned a couple of them.

[geekdafied]

Just to add, I just noticed you have a 30g, if its a 30L you can get away with PC lights for most things because they are good for 12"s depth for high light leathers and the like, but thats about it. T5HO's is what I would reccomend to you for it.

[Hosser]

Thanks Geek, and Im glad you mentioned that I am and I quote "somebody who does not have enough experience with Reef Aquaria." Because I made that very very clear.
Now Im glad you bring up the point of used properly. Ive been asking local reefers their thoughts on it and they all say the same thing, used properly there is less risk. So it brought me to the conclusion either those with chillers have the lights set too close, or had heat issues before.
I have PCs on my 29 long and love them. I get fine growth for me. Im upgrading to T5s soon though, but have no disregard for the PCs. In fact I think they help my tank with temp due to me never running a heater.
But I never qustioned the Halides success. And I now feel this is how it will be taken. I question the need. There is no reason to question my opinion which is what it is and Im glad you responded and gave your experience and insight.
I take away from your post that PROPERLY is paramount in the use of this type of light.
I still look forward to more responses and maybe personal readings of Par in comparison to T5s.

[geekdafied]

Originally Posted by Hosser

So it brought me to the conclusion either those with chillers have the lights set too close, or had heat issues before.

It would all depend on the particular wattage in question. 150w will put off nowhere near the amount of heat that a 400w would. BUT a 150w MH is only good for about the same amount of tank depth as the PC lights. So in some cases, it would be cheaper to run MH's vs PC's cause they both put off about the same amount of heat and Lumens. Thats also why JBJ Viper clip on lights come in 70w and 150w. You can have those 3" from the surface with minimal effect on temp.

[Hosser]

Would it be safe to assume then that since the majority of tanks in the hobby are betwen 30 and 90 gallon with most tanks in that size range being the same depth that with proper placement and thought, a halide could almost always be used without heat issues. Because it then shifts to question users and not manufacturers, for any complications.
Anyone using halides.....did they come with any sort of reccomended placement, or any degree of circumstances as in.... if its this close expect a "x" amount of heat exchange and if its "x" amount away expect less penetration?

[geekdafied]

Theres no way to judge it by that because there are so many other factors that come into play such as faulty heaters, faulty pumps giving off heat etc etc etc. There is also the relationship of the tank and its proximity AC registers and room temp. Also the proximity to any windows.

[Hosser]

Well of course...... but thats the case with everything. But almost everything at some point is tested maticulously in a controled invironment. And all those factors can be considered with any light.I think it would only be responsible for manufacturers or users of high heat lights to consider trying to run these more simply. And you mentioned the clip ons... I myself have even considered one at some point to "spotlight" if you will an area for say a clam or a carpet nem someday.
I want to stress here too that Im not against Halides in every application, and as I ask more people I see that its very very possible to run these in a proper way without the need of a heater. I think with a little time and intuitiveness a tanks temp and light needs could be handled with even less equipment. More so in the higher volume tanks, maybe its impatience, or ignorance to adaptability that has spurred some to "over equip". Which was my initial gripe with halides.
Does anyone on here have personal before and after shots going from differant types of light with time frames?

[Ganrin]

My metal halide lit tank runs 4 degrees warmer than room ambient temperature. Its very easy for me to regulate how hot my tank is getting even on the hottest summer days, by adjusting my air conditioning first and my light period second if the ac is having difficulty. I could have kept the tank temp closer to room temp this summer if my light fixture had fans, but I havent finished building my canopy that will have cooling fans.

[Hosser]

So would you say Ganrin you could change your tanks temp by as much or as little as a couple degrees by raising or lowering your light and still get the same or close to results and not need a chiller?

[jimw369]

I know this thread is about light but hosser throws the being responsible thing in there when addressing the use of MH. I really dont understand the point you are trying to make. Its like you are saying MH lead to more equipment and thus more mechanical failures so that makes a person irresponsible.

Id be much more concerned about animals killed because people dont research what they buy and to be honest know nothing about what they are doing. I think I can say stupidity is the #1 killer in the hobby and not MH.

As for myself I like mechanical things and when I go to bed at night I dream that this will be my fish room someday...


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...9/Fishroom.jpg

[Hosser]

I actually am trying to say people are irresponsible IF they havent done the research and jump into a system that IF unresearched as I believe lighting is can lead to livestock death.
I completely agree with you that stupidity is a huge killer but I think ignorance is a bigger killer.
Mechanical things can be great IF attended to. But fearing the vast majority do as we have seen lately jump into things too early, and I lump myself in there, and are ignorant to actual facts.
Jim you seem to be a VERY hands on reefer as I hope most are but you and I both know that more often than not simplicity is a must for alot of reefers. (myself included). The right applications, the right needs, and the right setup, and most importantly the right person I feel is someone who needs to venture into such a endeavor. That isnt often the case, and who suffers, its what I pointed out at the onset of this discussion.....the livestock. Maybe I feel there needs to be a difficulty level on lighting, like there is on corals.
I knew this was a touchy subect and I think it was taken more personal then it was intended and no matter how many times I said it people still took it that way.
I still havent yet gotten out of this thread what I had hoped and its pushing me further and further in to thinking its user error and misunderstanding.
As far as the pic Jim, I hope you have that too someday because you are the type I can honestly say oculd handle it and keep it in check without exception.

[e_baer]

So, this is what I am getting from this thread:

MH's are hot. People use MH and do no know how to properly use them if there is heat that is transferred from the MH to the water and the water gets too high. And I quote:

Originally Posted by Hosser

but I think ignorance is a bigger killer................and

[people]

Originally Posted by Hosser

are ignorant to actual facts.

What facts exactly are these? I understand that if you raise the MH off the tank a bit there will be less heat transfer, but how high are you willing to raise your lights?

_________________________

Originally Posted by Hosser

the average ocean temp in Hawaii being 71-81 degrees . The Keys 69-87, courtesy of the NOAA. Suggests that at a reef temperatures 10-15 degrees warmer would be intolerable to them.

I would like to point something out to you.

First off, who is this suggested by? Above you say "this suggests............."

Second, this is the average temperature. The temperature can reach in the 90's on hot summer days. So if there is a tank that reaches 85 durring the day, the livestock is not at too much risk. I usually keep my dt around 80 and my plant tank at 85. It just so happens that while in the PVC pipe the water is cooled by the time it reaches my dt....natural chiller

Tropical Weather : Weather Underground

That is as of today. You can clearly see the where there are coral reefs, the temp reaches close to 85, and its not even a hot summer day.....its almost half way through october.

And, what exactly "are you trying to get out of this thread"? Didnt you make this thread to open the minds if its readers?

[Ganrin]

I actually havent done any testing with raising and lowering my lights for temp adjusting, because the light that Im using at the moment wasnt built to be adjustable. I will be able to give you a better answer on that once the canopy Ive been slowly working on gets finished.

Here is an excellent article by Ron Shimek on natural reef temperatures and salinity levels. Based on this article I have actually been allowing my tank to peak around 82 degrees and Ive bumped my sg to 1.027 because those readings are closer to natural reef conditions than the long standby temp of 78 degrees and sg of 1.023.
Ron Shimek's Website...Critters

[e_baer]

David, if you were a female I would hug you. That areticle is great. I completely forgot about that article. It just confirms what I said earlier about the temp.

[Hosser]

What Ganrin did is exactly what I wanted. And I look forward to his looking into heighth and temp. And possibly heighth and growth.
Elliot asking how high you are willing to raise the lights is what I would love to see. Ganrin sounds like he is going to be able to tell us how it affects his tank.
You ask what Im trying to accomplish and its really nothing more than a discussion beyond basics of lighting and people asking should I do this or use that.
Elliott if you look at the map the temps BARELY reach 90. the maximum in the article pointed out by Ganrin is roughly low 90s.
So wouldnt that suggest as the article does that much beyond these maximums is intolerable?
I was hoping for more comparative opiions from experienced users of both but so far not much on that and there is more questioning my opinion than actual information which I was hoping would come my/our way.
All in all I wouldnt even mind someone trying to help me get past a lasting impression that illinformed reefers buy a halide with the feeling its completely necessary. So I pose the question to any who have the experience with HO lighting..... in general are halides necessary? Now most of you who know me and have talked to me in chat, know that I ALWAYS admit to being new, I always say to the best of my knowledge but to wait for other answers, and I am ALWAYS open to persuasion and information presented in a non offensive manner. I cant honestly see why people took offense to this. If its possible to have a halide and no need for a chiller and still get the desired growth and shimmer affect you so want then AWESOME..... but if it causes loss when there is a alternative out there with possibly nearly as good results then yes I think those who choose to do that do so with not the intint to kill but not wighing the costs. And if a shimmer is all that is wanted then there is no need for it to be so close to the water to cause so much heat transfer.
Its a discussion and thats all. I have asked for specific information and for those posting it I appreciate it and hope that some day I can be cool with a middle point on halides.
I was jumped so hard when I first started on this forum and now feel I have some respect, and some degree of helpful info. I presented an opinion take it as you wish. But I stated very very plainly it is an opinion and was not directed, nor posted to offend.

[Ganrin]

Sanjay's lighting guide Manhattan Reefs - Sanjay's Lighting Guide

[e_baer]

I would like to know where you are getting some of this information. Perhaps its not the MH that is causing the death, but rather the pumps,heater malfunction, water quality, proper food, etc. I think by putting the heat problem on MH, its rediculous. If you say, a few powerheads a hot running return pump in addition to MH you may need a chiller, then that would be a lot more accurate than saying what you are. I think you are close to being on the right path, but not quite there.

[Hosser]

Elliott, I before mentioned necessity. All those things are very crucial to a SW tank. Its not a question of heat but rather the necessity of a high heat light. I know they have good results. I know they can be used without chillers (even more so now) but what Im trying to get to is if they can be used with the wanted result without EXTRA equipment. And it could quite possibly be where I live too. Alot of people I know personally dont run heaters at all. And high heat is more of an issue when adding things that produce even more heat.
At the moment what I would really like to get out there is a line, a line which Im asking those who have used these lights to help draw. It will have variences but thats why I ask people without controled curcumstances. The line being is there still a growth advantage in a standard 24" or shorter tank to using a halide when it is set up high enough not to cause more than a degree or two in change of temp?
make sense? hard to type it , easier to ask it haha

[e_baer]

Necessity? How much are you willing to pay for a lighting unit? I personally got PC lights because when I started in the hobby, I was 15 and didnt have too much money. Dont get me wrong, I understand where you are coming from, but like I said, I think you are close to being on the right path, just not quite there yet...

[Hosser]

I say necessity because as I mentioned in chat last night that its pushed as a necessity alot of times. Maybe not on RB so much but reading though reefing articles and other forums halides are almost thrown out there as much needed as LR. Cost isnt at all the issue I have with them.( ALthough I think we are completely getting screwed on pricing as hobbyists.) My issues with them may all but go away if that question or line can be somewhat drawn with respectable expectations, and still respectable results.

[e_baer]

So really, you dont have an issue with MH at all? Its the people who use them "inproperly" that you have an issue with? Id get some extra locks for your doors and windows lol

[Hosser]

well sort of Elliott, if they can be used higher with little temp change then yes I have a problem with the improper use because the need for a chiller is obselete and is only done so out of wrong info, or feeling "if its closer I will get better growth" which raises the temp and then stuff dies. So no I dont actually have an issue with the light itself if it works as smoothly and simply as other lights.

[e_baer]

The NEED for a chiller? or want.....to be on the safe side?