[SantaMonica]

jimw you really don't see the pic at the top of this thread? Here is a duplicate pic:

using others to do research

You mean see how it's helping many other people's tanks?

I do see where on 9/11 you finished a great looking prototype of ATS and were ready to hook it up to your own system. Was this to replace the existing one? If so could you post some pics of the new one being installed?

It's already installed about about to run solo. I'll be posting a growth sequence of it soon.

Geek:

Its funny reading your thread at RC about this. Especially the part where you were telling mod's to ban people who disagreed with you.

You mean the people who were making personal attacks at me, and my family members? Yes, I wanted the mods to curtail (not ban) them. But personal attacks are allowed on RC, read them for yourself. By the way, I first pm'd the four mods for that forum about the problem; not one replied. And I did not leave; they deleted the account.

After reading your posts on and hearing about this being posted on atleast 16 other fish forums that we know of I have came to a conclusion.

Are those folks not worthy of the same info that you are getting here?

Some people have accused you of being commercial

Who cares what they think.

and you have been banned and had threads closed all over the place

Get your facts straight. RC is the only ban. Reefs is the only closed.

Your typing is ability shows you are educated.

And yours shows you are not.

So you must be a grad student doing a thesis or something of the like because you have researched this quite extensively for "just a new guys hobby".

Try again.

So you're trying to con people (newbs and less informed people) into helping you do your research on this because you cant do it all yourself.

You are a real research scientist.

You also sound somebody who has little to no experience in the hobby unlike the 3 years that you claim

Yes, I sound somebody.

Anybody who has been doing this for awhile know's without water changes/filters(mechanical and chemical) you water will soon turn yellow from dissolved organic carbons which comes from everything, including the turf algae.

Shows what you know. Must be that research.

You aquarium water may also turn green from chlorophyll given off from the algae.

Yes, me aquarium so green I no see fish.

Turf algae is used in sewer treatment plants

Day job?

you're going about it all wrong or in the wrong places.

I meant to post on the auto repair forums, but got here by mistake.

I read on your thread at RDO that you dont keep SPS, well then you will never know without some else doing the work how this will effect SPS corals, but as I said in the above post, that was the biggest part of the problem years why people couldnt keep Acro's.

My original post does not ever mention SPS.

By the way, I won't be seeing your posts after today, so have a nice life.

[SantaMonica]

Today's build-of-the-day is the very first solar powered screen that I've seen on any thread. Lighting will not be a problem with this one. Uses a simple pressurized pvc frame:

[geekdafied]

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/BucketOnSink.jpg

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/BucketInOperation.jpg

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/WholeTankSmall.jpg
Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/WholeTank.jpg

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AllPartsSmall.jpg

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/SumpV1.jpg

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/SumpV2.jpg

http://www.radio-media.com/fish/SumpV3.jpg



These are the DIRECT links to the pics he posted in his first post. Notice how they all say radio-media. Do you all know what that is??? Its a PROMOTER's website. He is promoting either something he is building or somebody elses design for profit.

[SantaMonica]

Today's N-and-P-lowering successes are both from the UR site, and both of them were a build-of-the-day that I previously posted:

"Col" says: "Test results from tonight are N=7.5 & P=0.1 I've not had test results as low as this before. The lighting on side 2 of the screen is really making a difference. Thanks SantaMonica for all your help!

"johnt" says: "Tested today and nitrate has come down from 50 to less than 25:


Date------8/21--------9/7---------9/14--------9/20

Nitrate----60-----------*-----------50-----------<25
pH---------8.24---------*-----------8.23---------8.27
Mag-------1394--------*-----------1335--------1440
Cal---------500----------*-----------465----------460
dKH-------7.2----------*------------8.6----------8.3
SG---------1.026-------*------------1.026-------1.026
Temp-----26.3---------*------------25.3---------24.8
Phos------0.25---------*------------0.1-----------<0.1

* = Started Scrubber

"First a big drop in Phosphate and now an equally impressive drop in Nitrate"

[SantaMonica]

It's Time For The Santa Monica 120 Acrylic!

Ok it's time to move my screen from the ugly bucket by the sink (with hoses, wires, timers, etc) to under the tank where it can sit on the sump. The idea for this design came from all the readers who tried to install their screens over their sumps. Low profile is important for me, as it is to anyone without a fish room, so I picked 6" as the max height. That would give me room to lift out the screen and pull it out of the stand, with room to spare. And at 6" height, the pvc pipe will take up 1", leaving 5" for the screen. So the screen will be 5 X 24 = 120 sq in. This is good for a decently-stocked 90 like mine, or a lightly stocked 200 with no real nutrient problems. Here is the initial layout that I gave to the acrylic shop:




Wide screens like this are more efficient and powerful (with the same light) than tall narrow screens, but require more flow. My screen will need 24" X 35(gph/in) = 840 gph. However the same 120 sq in screen placed vertically would only need 5" X 35(gph/in) = 175 gph. The vertical placement has a disadvantage in that the water at the top gets filtered by the top of the screen, but then has to travel over the lower parts of the screen. Since it's already been filtered at the top, not much happens on the bottom part of the screen. This problem is eliminated with a horizontal screen since all the water that passes over the 5 inches of screen needs filtering.

Another good use for a low-profile screen like this would be for on-top of tank, when you want the pods to drain directly down into the display. Or, if you don't have a sump, the on-top placement would work great if you put the pump in the display.

The acrylic box came back from the acrylic shop, finished beautifully. They still have the plans, so if anyone wants the same box, call Hastings Plastics at 310-829-3449 and say you want the "aquarium algae filter screen box". The only change would be the "U" cutouts for the pipe: Tell them to make them a little larger round, and a little deeper, since the pipe was hard to push into them (and it stuck out a bit which made the lid not close all the way. ). I did a little grinding, and now it's perfect. The cost was about $100, without shipping. Here's how is arrived:




Unwrapped. Notice the bottom and ends are mirrored acrylic, with the mirror facing inwards:










The lid fits mirror-side down:




The pipe fits snug so that little light will escape. I had to grind the "U" cutouts a little bigger and deeper so the pipe would not block the lid:




The lid fit perfectly after the pipe cutouts were enlarged:




Here are the lights. They come with a combo of 10K and actinic:

24 inch Current USA Nova Extreme 2x24 watt T5 HO 10K/460nm, T5/T12 Fixtures > Fully Assembled Fixtures > Lighting > Aquarium


I removed the bulbs, and got 6500K and 3000K from here:

GE T5 High Output Fluorescent Grow Lamps - Plantlighting Hydroponics & Grow Lights


I'm going to set it up with 6500K on one side and 3000K on the other. Nobody recommednds 10K for macros, except for one person: The guy at Inland Aquatics that has been growing turf screens for 10 years. So, I'll try 10K soon, but not to start. Maybe you can start with 10K on yours and let us know how it works

Then I placed the lights on the acrylic and marked off where the the bulbs will be shining through:




Some method has to be used to mount the lights to the sides. I'm using acrylic blocks and acrylic glue:




The light-mounting is a bit tricky, because the lights need to be removeable, yet be pressed up against the acrylic to minimize light leakage (which would be important for an above-the-tank placement in plain view). The lights are then placed in the mounts:




The overall size ended up being 6.5" high X 6" deep X 24" long:






Here's a size comparison; the inside of the stand was once filled with filtration devices, and now it's just water:




Taped and ready for spray painting:




First coat was a metallic silver, so that the inside would reflect more:




After painting with black primer, and putting lights on:




End view:




Side view:




Lid off, ready to use:




The long, low-profile pipe and screen:




Lights on:




Setting on sump:




Running, with front light removed to see flow:




So, I rubbed algae from my original bucket into the new screen, then installed the screen and turned it on. I'm starting with the flow and lights on 24 hours, in order to speed up the growth. I'll decide later if I'm going to pulse the flow, and I'll wait for the algae to grow a bit before putting the lights on a timer. Also, there is no fan, because I wanted to make it as simple as possible for folks who wanted to try it themselves. I may try a fan later, but for now let's see how it does without one. Also also, I'm leaving my original bucket running, for safety, but of course this will slow down growth on the new screen.

[SantaMonica]

Results of the day:

jski711 on the RF site says: "Well i ditched my euro reef skimmer and have not noticed any side effects from doing so. i'm still doing water changes on a regular basis but i have increased feedings tremendously and have no adverse side effects from doing so."

keithqueef on RC says: "Update. Well i received my screen from inland (12x12) last friday. and since putting it into my system my trates have gone from red to orange to now dark yellow not quite orange, i lost my color card so i dunno numbers. the screen is dense with it."

[SantaMonica]

Ok here is a four-part video I made of the last scraping of the screen of my original bucket before I give it to the LFS to replace the tank-divider screen he's been testing. This video is low-light (with a 5 year old 2-meg camera), so you can't see the algae on the screen, but the purpose is to see the technique of screen cleaning/scraping:

Hi-res:

Part 1: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Scraping1.mpg
Part 2: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Scraping2.mpg
Part 2: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Scraping3.mpg
Part 3: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Scraping4.mpg

YouTube:

YouTube - Algae Scrubber: Cleaning/Scraping, part 1
YouTube - Algae Scrubber: Cleaning/Scraping, part 2
YouTube - Algae Scrubber: Cleaning/Scraping, part 3
YouTube - Algae Scrubber: Cleaning/Scraping, part 4

[bri74]

Well I dont know about anyone else here but I think if the dude is offering up plans to something that he says works great in his own set up it sounds to me like a "IMO" situation. So I say if you have a problem with algae give it a shot its totally up to everyone on here to try it for themselves. I think that most of us on here are here to read others experiences and decide if they want to try a solution or not. If an idea is not liked than dont try it but I dont think any one person here knows everything in fact I am quite sure of it unless of course they have tried the said solution and it did not work for them. In that case speak up and say why it didnt work for you. Dont butcher someone elses work. Now I remember why I hadnt been on this site in 6 months. Maybe I will try again in another 6. One more thing, if he is trying to sell it who gives a flying f*&^% if you want to try it buy it. If not dont.
later. It could always be put into the market place.

[jimw369]

Originally Posted by bri74

Well I dont know about anyone else here but I think if the dude is offering up plans to something that he says works great in his own set up it sounds to me like a "IMO" situation. So I say if you have a problem with algae give it a shot its totally up to everyone on here to try it for themselves. I think that most of us on here are here to read others experiences and decide if they want to try a solution or not. If an idea is not liked than dont try it but I dont think any one person here knows everything in fact I am quite sure of it unless of course they have tried the said solution and it did not work for them. In that case speak up and say why it didnt work for you. Dont butcher someone elses work. Now I remember why I hadnt been on this site in 6 months. Maybe I will try again in another 6. One more thing, if he is trying to sell it who gives a flying f*&^% if you want to try it buy it. If not dont.
later. It could always be put into the market place.

Soooo...because one person makes a post maybe disliking Santamonicas ATS you talk down the entire site? Maybe you need to visit the 17 other sites SantaMonica is posting the same canned threads on. I think Reef Builders has done better than other sites at listening about the ATS without "butchering some one elses work". Santa has had his threads closed on 2 or 3 other sites but I dont see Reef Builders doing that. I think I see RB as
being pretty open minded in this situation.

[bri74]

I have seen this happen to several other posts. Im not talking about RB obviously. I am talking about this one person in general being negative about someones trial run with something. I just dont think we need to be immature here. I am going to stick up for someone who puts an opinion out there and gets it butchered. I mean seriously we all put opinions out there.

[SantaMonica]

The Power Of Light, another example:

Reader "varga" on the RS site just did a cleaning and sent in these pics; here is before the cleaning... it looks like the screen has an even coverage all across it:




But here is after:




Notice that the center area has a tougher, stiffer algae that holds on stronger because it is made up of less water and more fibers (i.e., more N and P, less H20). Now why do you think that the stronger algae formed in the middle of the screen? Here's why:
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Yes, because of the lights. The screen may look evenly covered in light when you look at it, but your eyes can't tell the high power areas from the low power areas. Also, when you double the distance of the light, you would think the power of the light would be reduced to one-half; but it's actually reduced to ONE FOURTH of what it was. So when optimizing your design, you want the lights as close to the screen as possilbe, all the way across the screen.

[Hosser]

If this were a product review would it be taking so much heat....... Bri brings up a good point as I had said almost the same thing before its up to the individual to try it or not.
Jim also brings a good point up that it has been scourned at other sites. I like the way RB is handling this and realizes or hopefully does that at this time Santa has done nothing WRONG, maybe he is peddling something, but who is more at fault those peddleing or those willing to try it out. I for one probably wont try it, but havent we ALL done things that someone else might think is stupid or not worth it and may have had good results. Its a hobby not a communist job.
And Santa be honest why so furvent with this topic.....if its research for a future product why not just be up front about it? I think people would have welcomed the idea open armed had it not come across as a sells pitch. I for one find it intresting enough to read about. If I knew some of the members or persons trying it it may be more convincing but at the time being Im just reading.

[SantaMonica]

And Santa be honest why so furvent with this topic.....if its research for a future product why not just be up front about it?

Because it's not. Here's the story...

I started reefing without any knowledge by hiring a maintanance man to design, setup, stock, maintain, and even feed a 90 custom bowfront reef in our office (by my desk!) in January 2006. He was the most visible guy in our part of Los Angeles. Well his version of knowledge was a SG of .040, no acclimation, a flow of 100gph for a 90, and taping his business card to the display for folks in other offices to see. The cleaner shrimp he threw in would freeze dead before they hit the sand. So nothing alive in the tank yet, and it was hard asking him questions when he would not show up for three weeks at a time. Fired him and looked for a replacement (yet he is still being recommended by a LFS.)

From a referral from another LFS, found a guy "doing this for 20 years", who actually did know proper SG. He recommended a tank rebuild and re-drilling to get more flow. Well he was good at showing up once a week on schedule, and changing 30% water. But he was missing some small things, like cleaning any of the mechanical filters, or, setting the skimmer so it would produce anything at all. He actually did get some corals and fish into the tank, however, so I kept him for a year. Then I started reading forums . Here are some other flaws I found: Sand bed was not deep enough to be DSB; his nitrate test kit was years old and always showed "zero"; made the SW one hour before bringing it for a WC; set flow to only 350gph (for a 90 reef); never vacuumed sand; never blew detritus off rocks; never checked pH; added unscreened bioballs in the overflow to "make it "quiet"; did not know how much feeding was "overfeeding". And on. Well, with so much import and almost no export, the tank and sandbed crashed in just 12 months. I took some water (that my guy said had zero N) to the LFS, and they said N was 100, and P was 3 (not .3). The tank glass had needed cleaning twice a day, and no wonder. So I fired him too.

Having just then learned some basics, In August 2007 I went lights-offs, and changed the parameters to best do an in-tank cooking of the rock. A few months later things were better, So I slowly added light and one damsel. Things progressed nicely, except I could never get zero N and P, and I could never get the algae off the rock and back wall (every inch was covered in green). So my focus became nutrient removal. I did the mesh mod and a new pump for my Euroreef CSS-8, experimented with the position, flow, everything. Then two things happend: First, I read that skimmers do NOT remove Inorganic N and P, at all. Second, I was reading up on "display refugiums" that I could use, which would look cool with seahorses, and which would reduce N and P too. But someone commenting on them said "if you are doing this just to remove N and P, just use a scrubber... it's the most powerful way to remove nutrients, and you may not even need your skimmer".

Ah! So I scratch built my first scrubber in a bucket, bought a pre-grown screen from Inland Aquatics in Indiana (USA), and hooked it up. Day 1: skimmer dies! Turns out the plastic from the bucket caused this, but I did not know this, so I just unplugged the skimmer and let the bucket run. Day 2, 3, 4... N and P were steadily dropping. Day 7: Zero!! Zero N and P, and with no skimmer! So I picked myself up off the floor, and here I am now.

[Hosser]

I read the story before...I guess I should ask it this way then.....Why is it being percieved on all the forums as a sales pitch?
Ive just never seen a DIY thread become heated. You seem like you have done alot of work on this and others as well, I just dont get it.

[SantaMonica]

Why is it being percieved on all the forums as a sales pitch?

You tell me

[SantaMonica]

Many folks asked for pics of the jski711 no-skimmer tank whose test results I already posted, so here they are along with an update he posted:

"Well first i'll start by giving you a little background of my tank. its been up for 2 years now and am running t5 lighting. in the past i have had algae issues and phosphates tested above .1 from overfeeding. (i'm trying to fatten up my clowns and hopefully get them spawning). i've also got a 15g tank plumbed into my system that has a pair of mandarins in it which i am also trying to get spawning. i had a sick mandarin and dosed my tank with Maracyn to try and save him. after dosing this for a week i was unable to turn my skimmer on because it would just overflow from the medicine. after doing numerous water changes and about a month later i still was unable to turn it back on, thats when i saw [the scrubber] thread. I also had to turn off my calcium reactor because the co2 was dropping my ph too low; the bubbles from the skimmer were really helping me keep my ph up but with my skimmer not running, it had to be turned off. thats when i decided to give [the scrubber] a try. i purchased a pre grown screen from inland and off i went. since adding the "scrubber" i have noticed a major increase in ph which allowed me to turn my calcium reactor back on and get things stable again. the reactor has only been back on for about 2 weeks now and im "re dialing" it in. my ph fluctuates between 7.8 at night and 8.0 during the day. I have over 30 different types of sps in my tank, just did a quick count, and i have noticed no ill side effects at all. i have also been overfeeding a ton, especially to my mandarins! i have also noticed that the green film of algae i would get on the glass every few days has gone. I don't even remember the last time i scraped it, although in the pics you will see it needs to be done soon cause i have a ton of coraline algae on it. So IMO this "scrubber" has done wonders for me. I have been skimmerless for over 3 months now and still do my normal water changes, sometimes i do go 2 weeks but normally every weekend i do one. the turf that was on the screen from inland is still there but it doesnt seem to be spreading but not receding either. below are some pictures from today, they were just quick shots so sorry if they are blurry but you will see the colors i've got are great and like i said earlier i have had NO ill side effects at all."








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[SantaMonica]

Growth Sequence of New Acrylic Screen

The new acrylic scrubber is up and kicking. These pics were taken while the original bucket was still operating, so the growth is slower than it would have been otherwise. I'm running 3000K on one side, and 6500K on the other, as a test. It probably won't make much difference until the holes in the screen are sealed off, but here are the daily pics. The T5 light on the front has been removed so you can see the screen:


Day 1


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay01.jpg


Day 2


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay02.jpg


Day 3


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay03.jpg


Day 4


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay04.jpg


Day 5


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay05.jpg


Day 6


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay06.jpg


Day 7


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay07.jpg


Day 8


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay08.jpg


Day 9


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay09.jpg


Day 10


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay10.jpg


Day 11 (a huge growth increase):


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11.jpg


Notice that it takes several days before you can see any growth at all. And yes, I did seed the screen. Going back one day to Day 10, here are some closeups:


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Acry...seup1Day10.jpg



Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Acry...seup2Day10.jpg



Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Acry...seup3Day10.jpg



Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Acry...seup4Day10.jpg



Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Acry...seup5Day10.jpg


And here is a closeup from Day 11:


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11closeup.jpg


And what it looks like out of the stand. Note the algae coming out of drain; it was almost 2 feet long before I pulled it out for this pic:


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/AcrylicDay11heldup.jpg


Here's the growth on the 3000K side:


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Acry...11out3000K.jpg


And the 6500K side:


Hi-Res: http://www.radio-media.com/fish/Acry...11out6500K.jpg


Instead of following the rule of cleaning only one side at a time, I had to do both in order to measure the algae of the 3000K side versus the 6500K side. Here is what was pulled off, like pulling a rope:




Here are the algae amounts removed, after a cleaning:




And here's the screen after cleaning; this is why you don't clean both sides, becuase it leaves left nothing on the screen for filtering:




A few notes:

o The screen is only 1.5 inches from the acrylic wall, and thus some water does get on the wall. But this unit is currently not setup for airflow with a fan, and it has a lid, so the water never gets a chance to evaporate. As a result very little saltcreep forms. I think I wiped it twice during the 11 days; however it did not do anything, just redistributed the droplets. On day 11 there was a small amount of creep; when I pulled the screen out I just reached in an splashed some water on it and it came off.

o There was a great increase in algae between day 10 and 11. I've seen this many times: once the hair algae gets to a certain point, the next day it covers everything.

o When the screen get covered, algae start flowing down the scrubber and out the drain. Not a little, but a lot. It easily reached the botton of the sump 18" below. I just grabbed it and pulled it off. This might be a way to feed tangs, if the unit were placed on the hood of the tank.

[SantaMonica]

Reminder Of The Day: Flow...

The basic rule of thumb for flow for a standard pipe slot is 35 gph (US gallons per hour) (140 liters per hour) per inch (2.2 cm) of screen width. Thus a screen 2" wide would need 70 gph. This should cover the entire screen with a swift flow on both sides, and leave you with a little room for adjustment. The more flow, the better, but this amount has proven to work well. How tall the screen is does not change the gph, however; only the width does. Here is the chart:

Screen Width-----Gallons Per Hour (GPH)

2" 70
3" 105
4" 140
5" 175
6" 210
7" 245
8" 280
9" 315
10" 350
11" 385
12" 420
13" 455
14" 490
15" 525
16" 560
17" 595
18" 630
19" 665
20" 700

[SantaMonica]

"Sly" on the SWF site is getting great growth in just 6 days from his trashcan-scrubber with built-in surge device:




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And what is this.... dinner?




...Nope, it a week of growth from just one side (the 6500K side) of my acrylic unit.
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