[tyoung]

hello,

I am new to this hobby and wanting to build 180 gallon reef system. Starting out with fish and liverock first with inverts, then corals at a later time.

I have deciced to go with a live sand/liverock set up for the biological filtration and have deciced on glass over acrylic for the aquarium. Also, for mechanical filtration, I plan on using a high quality skimmer and a nice sump set up.

Where I need advice is in the area of price vs performace and quality of equipment and what has had the greatest performance and that you have had the best luck with. As you well know, there are a million choices out there and I want to go with proven equipment that works.

Please give me your opinions on the following and recomend what type I need to go with for best results:

oceanic vs all-glass aquariums
euroreef skimmer (best modle to use and best place to purchase)
lighting-what is the best one to use? I like the combo orbit type
sump-which one would do the best job and easy of maintence?
chiller-this set up will be in a basement, and the weather is seasonal, will I need one with the type of lights I will be useing?(-15-low 100's)
wavemakers-what is your opinion of useing these and which one works best
pumps-which ones are the best to use to keep heat at a minimun and low energy cost, how many will I need to meet 3600 gph circulation?

I am hopeing that starting out with good equipment, I will save money down the road. Getting started, I need advice on what is the best way to invest my money and get the best results, "the most bang for the buck."

thanks

[RyanG]

oceanic vs all-glass aquariums I prefer all glass. Oceanic tanks that i have had, leaked over time.

euroreef skimmer: Try the Recirulating line, they are pricey but well worth the efficiency.

lighting-what is the best one to use? I like the combo orbit type At least get metal halides, depending on how deep your tank is, the least I would get is 250watts.


sump-which one would do the best job and easy of maintence? You can either buy one or build your own, you might consider buying a 100 or 75 gallon aquarium and converting it into a sump, which is easy to do.

chiller-this set up will be in a basement, and the weather is seasonal, will I need one with the type of lights I will be useing?(-15-low 100's) I would only recommend a chiller if you get extremely hot tempatures, I live in texas and will be buying one this next summer. Metal Halides put out a lot of Heat.

wavemakers-what is your opinion of useing these and which one works best
Wavemakers for corals are a must, check out Tunze line of streams with a multicontroller, or you can Mod Maxi Jets which are cheaper. Most people pick the Tunze line since they have huge controlable areas and are very easy to operate.
pumps-which ones are the best to use to keep heat at a minimun and low energy cost, how many will I need to meet 3600 gph circulation? Figure at least two, these need to be outside sump pumps, or known as external pumps rather than internal pumps.

[volitan_fa]

Well I'm only gonna interject on the lighting part because reefbuilders did a good job on everything. BUT if you're looking for true longevity and performance, look at the Solaris LED lighting systems. You're gonna pay about $2k for 'em, but I don't think you can match it with MH, or anything else for that matter. Would love to have one for my own . Check 'em out Here.

[RyanG]

I'm waiting on long term results for the LED lighting systems, making sure that those LED lights can support light hungry SPS systems.

[volitan_fa]

Originally Posted by reefbuilders

I'm waiting on long term results for the LED lighting systems, making sure that those LED lights can support light hungry SPS systems.

I agree...I'd like to see it more widely used before trying it out, but if you look Here, there's been a LOT of research done, and they've actually shown the LEDs to produce more PUV than metal halide, use half as much energy, and produce little to no heat at all. On top of that, the Luxeon LEDs they use have roughly a 50,000 hour life (abt 11 years), reducing to about 70% output at that point. Can you imagine not changing bulbs for 10+ years?

They've also got pics of a reef tank they've been using to test the LED system for the past 2 years. You can check it out Here.

[tyoung]

thanks for the advice and I would have guessed different on the oceanic vs all-glass due to the 300-400 dollar price difference.

Wow. 840 for the rc180, it had better live up to it's billing. Was wondering if there is a single place you shop online for the best prices on aquatic supplies and/or livestock includeing live rock? Which places do you endorse for price and quality?

where can I find info on building a nice sump for my system?

The 3600 gph for circulation is 20x the system size. I am assumeing this is the totat value for the system main pumps, any powerheads, and wave maker. Is the correct or am I totaly off base here? I have read a few books and I get anywhere from 4x to as high as 30x system size. What have you found that works best for your livestock? I would hate to look over and see fish swimming as hard as then can and go nowhere lol, worse yet, live rock slides!!! lol

I checked out the led lighting system. I am thinking that it is a little high for my budget at this time, what would you use as a good choice? I am lookin at the outer orbit proseries hqi/t-5/led.

thanks again

[volitan_fa]

I think what you're paying for with an Oceanic is usually design/brand name. It doesn't necessarily make it a better product.

There are several reliable sources online for merchandise. thatpetplace.com, marinedepot.com, drsfostersmith.com are all good places to start.

The outer orbit is a pretty good lighting system from what I've read. I think getting MH is going to be your best bet, combined with some T5's.

[tyoung]

You have been most helpful with your information and help, I want to take the time to thank you for your patience with this newbie. I had a 55 gallon salt set up and running about 15 yrs ago. This was a fish only set up using a hang on the back filter for biological filtration and a mag 350 for the mechanical end of things. I was running the typical strip lights(full spectrum) and no u/g filtration of any kind. My substrate was crushed coral. I did not have as much luck with it as I might have wanted to, came home one day from work and everything was dead, includeing the worms in the coral(these were floating on top of the water!!) I lost a real nice naso, a beautiful rusty angle, a real cool spotted gobie(my personal fav) and a few dansiels. Other than that catastrophic event, I realy enjoyed the hobby, and am now wanting to get started in it again so my daughter (9) can enjoy it with me.

What you guess the cause of my tank crash was? New tank syndrome? This was a good year after I had cycled the tank, all levels were good just a few days before the crash, had no evidence of illness or diese and the fish were eating fine(fake food mainly) and acting normal.

I truely feel that if I had more knowledge and did more research on what I was doing, things would have worked out better. That is where I am now, gathering info, prices, and reading books. I have read the following:

The Marine aquarium Hand Book by Matrin A. Moe, jr
The saltwater Aquarium Hnadbook by George Blasiota (not that helpful)
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert M. Fenner(great reading)

I also have a copy of the Dr. Burgess's Atlas of Marine Aquarium Fishes, Third Edition.

These books are great describeing different aspects of the hobby, but none realy explain how the whole system goes together. Just more or less what each peice of equipmed does and their opinions of which is worthwhile and which are not. I am sure most of the opinion is based of fact and/or personal success/failure. What I am gettin at is when I start to invest in this endevor, I need to do it right the first time. I can't afford to sink money (thinking around 5k-?) on stuff that does not work or that breaks down and doesn't perform as expected if used correctly. I don't mind expanding the system, but I hate to replace things and waste the money doing so. Below is a list of items that I plan on useing for this set up, your ideas or thoughts on each will be welcomed, we are all friends here lol:

180 gallon all-glass with dual overflows and wood stand(1402)
substrate-180 lbs live sand, fiji pink(242.91)
live rock-315 lbs fiji select premium(840)
protein skimmer-euroreef rc180(838)
mechanical filtration-unsure of at this time, but looking
system pumps-undecided at this time, suggestions?
lighting-t5 with mh seems to be the trend, the led shows promise, but at(3333), ouch
ro/di-kent marine deluxe maxxica60 series(280)
wavemaker-tunze stream kit ts42(1281.15)
heaters-going to run two but undecided on a qualty one yet, visotherm?

This is what I have so far, see, I do follow up on your recomendations and advice, which has me pointed in the right direction.

A word about the sump, I want to use it to house my heaters and any chemical filtration along with the mechanical. I want the main tank to be as natural looking and unclutterd as possable. Does such a beast exist at a reasonable cost? What size would work best with this sytem and will I need more filtration on either mechanical or chemical? I know I will add a calcium reactor at some point when I delve into corals, but this will be at a later date, I want to concentrate on fish, liverock, and inverts at first, get a good feel on this first, then move onto corals at a later date.

Thanks as always and look forward to any and all responces!!

[volitan_fa]

Looks like you're getting good quality stuff. Just a few words of advice that may save you a little money. You don't need all 315 lbs of rock to be live rock. You can get the bulk majority of it as base rock and get some live rock (say 100 lbs?). Base rock costs about $1.50-$2.50/lb as opposed to the $4-$7 you pay for live rock.

Mag Drive pumps are good quality, try checking those out for your system pumps. Also, I like Jager heaters, but I've heard good things of VisiTherm heaters as well. For lighting, the Current Outer Orbit HQI/T5 system is probably your best value-for-quality ($1000-$1300). You can also put off the Tunze until you do get into corals, but then again it might be harder to install once your tank is set up.

You're smart to run a sump with all of this and house all the uglies down there. I think about a 55 gallon sump would work best for you. You can build one of your own out of a tank and some glass plate or you can order a pre-made one, but you will pay premium for pre-made sumps. For mechanical filtration you can put a sump sock on the inlet to the sump, and then run some wet/dry within the sump.

Otherwise....system looks great!

[tyoung]

Has anybody had any experience with the etss series of sumps and skimmers? They look like quality stuff, but pricey(sump). Looks like if you had some plans and measurements, you could make one out of acrylic. How do their skimmers stack up to euroreef's stuff?

[volitan_fa]

I'm not familiar with etss, but you can build them pretty cheap with acrylic, or even glass. Plus you get to set up the sump the way YOU want it. But it requires a little bit of know-how and work. You can search on several forums and find plans for sumps in DIY sections.

[tyoung]

Has anyone built their own stand? I have seen plans for them online and would consider building one. Just wanting to know if you like any particular design or plans because of thier looks and of course their ability to hold the weight of the tank and have plenty of room for your equipment. I like the enclosed look with the two doors in front for access. I noticed that some tanks warranties are void unless you use their stands. So long as the stand is level and square and able to support the weight, I do not see a problem with it, but, I am fairly new and want to know what you think about it.

I have looked at most of the forums(diy) and have not had much luck with comeing up with a design on a sump. If you have any ideas on where to find this info, it would be appreciated.

thanks in advance

[volitan_fa]

Just make sure there is room for your sump in the stand and enough access to clean/maintain it.

And here's my favorite sump design...simple yet effective:

[tyoung]

Thanks for the detailed schematics of this sump, this is most helpful. I noticed on this design that you used an insump skimmer and an external return pump, are there benifits in this layout as opposed to haveing the skimmer out of sump and an insump return pump? What are your thoughts on this?

I am thinking that if I wanted to do a 55 gallon, what areas would be expanded? What are your thoughts on useing active carbon in a compartment in the sump? what kind of filter media do you have the best luck with (floss/gause)?

[tyoung]

While I am at it, can you explain the benifits of getting a tank that is predrilled with overflow boxes compaired to useing an external overflow box? which do you use/like and why. Seems like you see more of the tanks with the overflows built in and predrilled used more than the overflow boxes these days and was wondering what the reasoning on this was.

[volitan_fa]

Well the main benefits of having a drilled tank is looks. It looks a lot nicer than having an overflow box. Another one is volume....a drilled tank can handle more water flow than most hang-on-back overflows.
Activated carbon is fine...in fact you can use whatever filter medias you would like! I personally use sponge filters, they give more surface area (biological + mechanical) and work pretty well for me.
An internal skimmer isn't really required, but it will take up less space under your stand than an external one would. It also runs slightly more efficiently. As for the external pump....plenty of benefits. An external pump will not put the heat generated back into your water...giving you more control over temperature. They also are less prone to clogging, saving you from a nasty flood .

[tyoung]

well, I don't want a pool in the basement lol From what I have read, you determine the flow rate of your sump at the return pump. If this is fact, you can double your flow rate by haveing two return pumps to the tank? If so, how does the skimmer at the other end keep up with the volume? I have this image of all this water returning into the tank at a higher rate than can drain down to the skimmer, doesn't sound like a good situation. I also have this image of the sump going dry because of the skimmer not keeping up.

[volitan_fa]

You need to match your flow rates for the siphon and the return pump. Example: if your overflow is rated for 1200 gph, you need a 1200 gph return pump (or a higher one that you can adjust). They also sell little in-line flow meters that help you determine the correct settings.

[tyoung]

LOL Now why didn't I think of that? Flow rates, who would have guessed? (feeling a little dumb now, lol) I did look at the info on the all-glass megaflow set up and it is rated at a max flow of 600 gph or a total of 1200 gph in total. Since I will more than likely go with at least a 55 gal sump, do I need to up the size of my skimmer since my total system water goes from 180 gallons to 235 gallons? I was wondering this because there won't be 180 gallons of water in the main tank due to the live rock.

Speaking of live rock, I looked at dfs and they sell a 45 lb box of Fiji premium for around 4.66 a lb, another source sells the same thing for 16.00 a lb. What is the deal here? That is a hudge difference!! Went from around 840.00 for 180 lbs to 2880.00 for the same amount.

A few questions about how to set up the fuge. What kind of lighting do you use? From what little reading I have done on that, I looks as if you are ok useing a full spectrum bulb. Also, what do you use in the fuge besides ls and lr?

I am still going back and forth on the lighting for this set up. The more I read about the Solaris, the more I like it. It makes great sence for long life and energy cost as well as heat transfer(no need for a chiller), but I would hate to invest that kind of money and it not work as advertised. I was also wondering if useing this much light would be harmful to the other critters in the tank, inverts and fish.

[volitan_fa]

For the skimmer, you always want a skimmer that can handle more than your total water volume, so figure on about 250 gallons for your setup.

Live rock....don't spend $16/lb on it, that is ridiculous! $4.66/lb is plenty to be spending on good live rock.

For the fuge, depending on the size, you could just use a Coralife mini-light. I think they're a total of 22W 50/50 light. You shouldn't need anything more powerful than that unless you have a LARGE fuge. Aside from the live rock or live sand, some people also put exporting algae in there, like chaeto. This absorbs certain nutrients (like nitrates) and then you clip them back every once in a while.

And if you get a Solaris, you have to keep us updated on it! If I had $3k to blow on a lighting system, I certainly would blow it on that. I've read a lot of their research notes and the system looks to be awesome and much more efficient than MH. I don't think I'd hesitate to buy one, the savings in bulbs and energy alone is a very compelling argument. Plus, you can adjust the light, so it shouldn't be too strong for anything

[mtfabel]

It seems you have some pretty good equipment already. I am including a picture of my sump. It is just a 55 gal that i glues some glass seperaters in. Since it seems like you are trying to be patient if you go to garf.org they have a link that shows how to make your own rock. As far as matching your pump to flow(nonsense) just buy a few peices of plumbing and build a bleed of valve(just in case you upgrade later). You can see in the photo how I built in a bleed of valve.

[tyoung]

If I do get the Solaris, I will post pics along with updates. As of right now, I have not bought a thing. This is what some of my overtime is going buy. I think it would be great for the family to get involved in. I guess this is what you can call "sweat equity" just in a different rehlm. lol

I think I am going to get the equipment first, then go for the tank last. I want to be able to have everything together and set up so, once I start, I don't have to run here and there for things I need to get it up and running.

This is going to take me more than a year to get together, IF all goes well, I will get the skimmer first, build or buy a sump,(really want to give building one a try), then onto the heaters, tunze unit w/controller, return pump, plumbing, ro/di unit, salt, test kits, various other testing equipment(hydrometer), top off kit, various items such as new garbage cans and buckets to hold premixed salt water, and finaly the tank and stand.

I plan on cycling the tank with the live rock. Is there a time that is best to put the live rock in the tank, or, do I just put it all in at the verry beginning? I also plan on useing the live sand at the same time, is that safe as well? And, is the smell too overwhelming? This will be in my Family room(basemet). If is to too bad, I will cure it in garbage cans and transfer it to the tank. I do plan on useing cured liverock, from what I have read, there will still be die off.

Will I also need a calcium reactor? I do plan on a few easy to keep corals after I get a good feel and knowledge base for the hobby. Lotta things have changed in the last 13-14 years lol.

What kind of salt do you reccomend? I see that there are some that have trace elements and some don't. I am planning on going with the ones that do. I used Instant Ocean in the past, they seemed to be about the beast at that time.

[Big D]

Not sure if this will help you much, but here's a link to my 180 build... It's a work in progress, but has been up and runnning for a few months now...


180 Build <<<<---- Click Here



Big D

[tyoung]

Thanks for the Link to your build big d. I think your tank is a piece of art in progress!! Looks like you know what you are doing and it shows how much time you have put into this set-up. Do you think you can come up with drawings and send them to me? I would build that!!!

I think your aquascapeing is real cool as well. I would have to say it beats anything that I have seen thus far. I get tired of seeing just a bunch of nice lr stacked all over the place. It does alot for your tank.

Just hopeing that with time and effort, I will have something as nice as what you have built. I am sure you are proud of it!!

[volitan_fa]

Just throw your live rock in first (after you set up the tank). Let it cure in there for a while, then add the live sand after you're able to get some of the die off out. Just my suggestion.