[mikehardy]

OK first off i have a 50 gallon reef im still building. for the last 3 weeks my dkh was at 11 which i found was decent. then over night it shot up to 14 and one day after that its 13. question is how do i reduce the dkh back to 11?? my calcium level is at 480mg/l and everything seems to be doing fine. also my PH is 8.3 where it should be, tank temp is 76 degrees.

any help is greatly appreciated.

Mike

[e_baer]

first, that seems a little low for the tank temp, try to make it 80ish.

what type of buffer are you using?

my buffer raises the ph to 8.3 but makes the dkh rocket.

try to add 2-3gallons of non buffered water.....slwoly and make sure you are checking ph

[SweeTang22]

what kind of test kit are you using? are you dripping kalkwasser during the night? is 480 a bit high? sounds like it

[AMS]

i would wait and see if it rebounds on its own. could just be from over-buffering during a water change. how are you adding calcium? as far as test kits, i would recommend using the salifert tests at least for pH and kH. they are by far the most accurate.

if the kH doesn't go back down w/in 2 days, i would maybe do a small water change w/o using any buffer. even though there are buffers in the salt mix, its not going to be enough to raise the kH.

[mikehardy]

ok here's everything:

50 gal tank
70 pounds of aragonite sand
50 pounds of LR
NO FISH--i have something in my water that kills fish so im waiting 3 weeks to add more fish.
6 blue leg hermits
3 cortez red hermits
1 snail
2 pumping Xenia's
blue mushrooms
brownish green mushrooms
green star polyps
button polyps
some other type polyps (zooanthids of some sort)
2 neon caulestrea

i use seachem brand: reef advantage calcium, reef buffer-raises ph to 8.3, and reef builder-raises alkalinity. i also use tropic marin A and K elements for my trace minerals.

I used the reef buffer once because my ph was like 7.4 and hasn't been lower than 8.1 since. havent used the reef builder because my dKh was always at 11. i did mess up on the calcium. i didnt know you had to take the reading off the chart supplied with the test kit and multiply it by 1.25 so it was around 350 mg/l before i added some calcium now its 480mg/l.

[AMS]

ok....with the sea chem reef buffer and builder, it is possible to spike your kH if you add both products at the same time. to be honest with you, i don't even use the reef buffer anymore. i have found that by using just the reef builder is enough to keep the kH where it need to be, which typically results in the pH staying where you ned it to be.

[SweeTang22]

i use seachems reef builder. it works fine with no results on higher calcium or KH. i would give it a shot. also to replace the minerals and whatnot, i use kents essential elements. it works just fine because the salt mix has pretty much everything else you need in it.

are you feeding your coral a lot with liquid feeders?? i used to feed them coral vite and coral accel twice a week, and they only recommended once a week. this threw all my parameters off.

[mikehardy]

i use PHYTOFEAST by reef nutrition. the guy at my LFS said to feed them a cap full every day, so thats what i have been doing. is that what might be killing my system? over feeding?

heres an update, my alkalinity(dKh) is now a 19. i did a 10% water change today and i used the reef buffer per my guy at the LFS. so im thinking i might do a 30% change and just put in normal saltwater without the extra buffer. my poor Xenia's are all slumped over right now.

by the way my ph crashed last night to 7.8 and never recovered.

what are the benefits of Kalkwasser?? will it help maintain PH and alkalinity??

in case i havent mentioned my waters gravity is 1.020 i used to have mine at 1.019 and it kept my fish really healthy, but i have no fish at this time. something killed my fish, i think a parasite...so im waiting 3 weeks before i get more fish.

[e_baer]

well, specific gravity should be around 1.025.

PH should be around 8.3

dont do a 30% change without adding buffer. Do a smaller change. and if that doesnt work, then just keep doing smaller chnages and check parameters after each time.

[SweeTang22]

kalkwasser is said to help keep the ph elevated to the higher 8.2-8.4
Its calcium hydroxide and they do it for the evaporation factor. ive never used it but all the info i read says its a good thing to have! do some research on it or see what everybody else says!

[AMS]

Originally Posted by e_baer

dont do a 30% change without adding buffer. Do a smaller change. and if that doesnt work, then just keep doing smaller chnages and check parameters after each time.

unfortunately for mike, he's in a position where he is probably going to have to do a big water change....a kH spike to 19 dkH, i hate to say, is probably going to be disasterous. he will undoubtedly lose many orals, so its emergency time.

mike, you've got to get your kH down, so i would do a 25-30% change, followed by 3 or 4 small changes (5 gal/day for 3-4 days), and do a kH test a few hours after each change. do not use any buffers. once you get it down to about 12, just let everything settle down and see who makes it. you're probably going to lose corals, so be prepared.

in the future, do not use the sea chem reef buffer and builder concurrently. in fact, you really don't need to use the reef buffer, only reef builder along with calcium.

let us know what happens.

[e_baer]

yeah, but if he is using the buffer to make the PH correct, he cant just add regular water.

he needs to adjust the PH.

[mikehardy]

ok i did a 20% water change and the dkh dropped 2 pts. its at 17 now. i will do another change tomorrow and just replace it with normal saltwater mix Correct??

i added zero buffer to my water change today. and im not going to feed my corals tomorrow since im afraid that the directions my LFS gave me about daily feedings is what is killing my tank. my calcium is at 475mg/L right now and my ph is at 8.4 as of 10pm this evening. so first thing tomorrow i will perform my water change and I HOPE the dkh lowers more.

[mikehardy]

the thing that sucks is that i have corals splitting and growing new ones right now!! I think one of my xenia's is dead the other im hopeful for. my mushrooms, caulestrea's and button polyps are still ok for now. so im pretty much praying right now that these water changes does the trick.

also thanks to all of you! you have been the greatest help to me. obviously the LFS dont care much. and i know absolutely NO ONE that has a reef tank near me.

[AMS]

Originally Posted by e_baer

yeah, but if he is using the buffer to make the PH correct, he cant just add regular water.

he needs to adjust the PH.

well, what i'm saying is that when he does a water change w/o using buffer, and assuming that he's using r/o which should be more or less void of mineral buffers, he will then be able to lower the bicarbonate salt levels in his system, thereby lowering his carbonate hardness. his pH will then rebound on its own.

i don't think he should be doing anything at this point in the supplementation to correct his alk. issue. that's a chemistry experiment which can get out of hand. he needs to do water changes, and just add salt for his make-up water and no buffers until he can get the dkH down to about 12, then leave it alone for a few weeks and let everything settle down.

manipulating pH and kH can become a slippery slope once it gets off kilter.

[AMS]

Originally Posted by mikehardy

also thanks to all of you! you have been the greatest help to me. obviously the LFS dont care much. and i know absolutely NO ONE that has a reef tank near me.

mike, where in MI do you live, and what LFS do you go to?

[rlcline76]

Elliot, I have to agree with Gregg on this one. One problem at a time. The Calcium will not be an issue, because he will be replenishing it with water changes, no buffer for the KH or Ca...nothing for pH. The system is stressed if we have corals freaking out. I doubt it has to do with the feedings of phyto. Really, when it comes to feeding you worry more about phosphates and nitrates. It is simple, no more chemicals until you can get everything within acceptable levels, this includes Essential or Trace Elements. There is calcium in that, as well. Everything is taken care of by the water changes (and then some). I sent you an article on this, Elliot, apparently not read.

[mikehardy]

i live in madison heights, just north of detroit. i go to Aquatic Discoveries in sterling heights, Oceans and Seas in roseville and Stingray bay in east pointe. MY MAIN one is Aquatic discoveries though.

so i should just use RO and salt mix for my make up water? i was going to buy seawater, but maybe thats bad since it has the elements....

[AMS]

Originally Posted by mikehardy

i live in madison heights, just north of detroit. i go to Aquatic Discoveries in sterling heights, Oceans and Seas in roseville and Stingray bay in east pointe. MY MAIN one is Aquatic discoveries though.

so i should just use RO and salt mix for my make up water? i was going to buy seawater, but maybe thats bad since it has the elements....

yup...just r/o and salt. adding more buffer would be like trying to put a fire out with gasoline. don't worry about you calcium....whatever is going on with your CA+ level is irrelevant since a) most of the animals are stressed and will not be utilizing CA+ and b) with your pH crash, i would be willing to bet you would have a tough time keeping it in solution. you don't actually need CA+ in the water for animals to live, you need it so that they can grow skeletal tissue, which they are not going to be doing right now.

water changes (one 25-30%, followed by 5%/day for 3-4 days) then just et it settle down. it will probably hit equilibrium fairly quickly....get your kH to about 12dkH, and watch the pH follow up by coming up day by day.

a warning to anybody who is new to this type of ecological management. animals can deal with waste, excess nutrients, temp swings and even salinity swings. but the one thing that you absolutely MUST be on top of is your pH/kH relationship, particularly yur kH.

if you keep your kH where it needs to be (9-12dkH), your pH will stay where you want it to be, and subsequently, you will have an easier time maintaining CA+ levels.

the pH/kH balance is one of the big reasons i recommend refugiums. when done properly with a 24 hour light cycle, the photosynthesis alone is almost enough to maintain hardness and pH in your system.

one more thing, mike. if you're in north metro detroit, don't waste your time in the LFSs there....go to preuss animal house in lansing. its probably a 45-60 minute drive, but once you go in there, you will know why i am recommending it. i have lived all over the country, and they are about as good as you will ever find, especially w/ reef knowledge. what you spend in gas $ will be compensated by the increased success you will have if you deal with them.

[mikehardy]

did a 25% water change at 130pm, tested it about 30 minutes after and the KH = 14. hope it stays at 14.

the guy at my local suggested adding some Co2....will that help anything??

[AMS]

Originally Posted by mikehardy

the guy at my local suggested adding some Co2....will that help anything??

sure....it will help make a bad situation worse. if you start adding CO2, your risk dropping your kH too far too quickly, and probably having a pH spike, then crash, and then everything that's in the tank will just flip out.

just follow up with some small water changes, no buffers, and let it settle down and re-establish equilibrium. sounds like the LFS guy is more worried about sounding smart than he is helping you actually fix the problem in a fashion that will minimize mortality.

[mikehardy]

thanks AMS. i really appreciate your help. i will check on here first from now on!

[mikehardy]

KH is holding at 15 for the last 4 hours. ph is 8.2 so far so good.

does anyone know anything about pumping Xenia corals?? mine are looking pretty bad. the guy at the LFS said that if they were dead they would be completely pulled in and excrete alot of mucus. is this true??

mine are standing upright but the color went from a pink to a light purple. amazingly the other corals are all ok.

[Steevo]

Im posting a little site info as this is a pretty comon problem, Ive seen no mention of magnesium levels yet, this is also a critical component, remember RULE #1, if you canot test for it. DO NOT add it lol
Reef Aquarium Water Parameters by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

[e_baer]

Originally Posted by mikehardy

i use PHYTOFEAST by reef nutrition. the guy at my LFS said to feed them a cap full every day, so thats what i have been doing. is that what might be killing my system? over feeding?

heres an update, my alkalinity(dKh) is now a 19. i did a 10% water change today and i used the reef buffer per my guy at the LFS. so im thinking i might do a 30% change and just put in normal saltwater without the extra buffer. my poor Xenia's are all slumped over right now.

by the way my ph crashed last night to 7.8 and never recovered.

what are the benefits of Kalkwasser?? will it help maintain PH and alkalinity??

in case i havent mentioned my waters gravity is 1.020 i used to have mine at 1.019 and it kept my fish really healthy, but i have no fish at this time. something killed my fish, i think a parasite...so im waiting 3 weeks before i get more fish.

this is the only reason i say do small water changes.

to make sure the PH doesnt drop anyore.

but i see you have the ph under control again.


becky, can you send me the article so im not out of the loop?