[ZooKeeper]

Hello,
I am new to saltwater and have spent a ton of money on salt, tanks, filters, gravel etal. I have a 10gal and a 30gal tank - the 10 gal is the 'hospital' or 'holding' tank for when I get a new fish. There's nothing in that tank other than a 4-5 inch DSB, an air pump and a pwer filter. The DSB is composed of argonate(?) gravel and live sand. For 3 weeks now I've been monitoring the ammonia level and it is high. The test shows a solid deep green color. My understanding is the ammonia will peak, then begin to subside while the nitrites will rise and peak. I've been told I don't need a protien skimmer on such a small tank. Since there are no animals other than what is in the live sand, what is keeping my ammonia lvl so high? The test kit is one from PetCo for fresh and saltwater - am I using the wrong test kit? I'm not about to put any animals into this tank until I can get it cycled, but it seems to me after 3weeks, the testing should show a gradual change in color when testing for ammonia.

My 30 gal tank has a couple inches of argonate rock and some live sand. The filter is a bio-wheel. I have not bothered to test it as the two tanks have been set up in the same week and if one is polluted, then the other will also be polluted.

Am I doing things in the right way and just need to wait some more? Should I change the water in the 10gal every day? I think changing 1 gal daily would help. With all the gravel and sand, there's about 6 gals of actual water.

I also just plan on a FO tank. Some clowns, a tang and then something to act as a scavenger.

thanks in advance,

Ed

[glampka]

You may be getting false readings from the test kit. I would use 1 that is specific to saltwater.
A QT doesn't need to be fancy. Can be a bare bones tank - no substrate, a piece of pipe for the fish to hide in, a sponge filter for biological filtration, a heater & a light.
Normally you don't want to do a water change until the cycle is complete. If you do it while the tank is cycling you'll end up slowing down the process.
The 30 will be a bit small for a tang. Usually 55 is the smallest tank for them. Do some research & find out the minimum requirements for the fish you select.

[Jeremy0322]

For a 30 gallon tank i would be careful planning on getting a tang. They love to swim and may need more than a 30 gallon tank to be happy. Stressed Fish = Sick Fish = Dead Fish. You could also check the filters and stuff and see if the cartridges need changed, but that is just a guess. I dont know how long it takes filters to get icky and stop doing their job.

[orestes19832003]

that is a bit long for a cycle to keep up have you thought about adding some live rock to the tank that should speed it right along. even though its fish only tank it can benefit from live rock. not to mention its just good for your tank all around really. but it doesn't sound like your really doing anything wrong though.

[ZooKeeper]

Thanks for your replies. I took some water over to the LFS and he tested the water for me. Same results I'm getting. He said its just part of the cycle. I was told to expect brown algae all over the tank and to let what is on the sand remain undisturbed, but I could clean the glass. I find I'm using the same testing kit as the LFS. So... guess I have some waiting to wait.

I'm getting confused over number of fish I can put in the 30gal tank. I seem to find answers that range from 1 or 2 clowns and no others, to 4 clowns and a tang. I like tangs, but I'm not hung up on having one and I find other fish roughly the size of the clown's are very pretty. My experience has been with fresh water fish - I have a 30gal tank heavily planted and with about 20 small fishes all going about their busines of being a fish.

What search term do I use in google to find answers to compatible fish and the number that can safely be in a small tank.

Also, the LFS said I don't need a protien skimmer on the 30gal. Is that a good idea? to omit the skimmer, or will water changes take care of the excess protiens.

Ed

[dhboyd1]

I know this may sound complex but here is what I did for my tank and my test kit. First I bought RO/DI mixed salt water and fresh water from a reputable LFS and had them run all the test on the water. When I got home I built an excel spreadsheet to track the date, type of water and all the test results on the water. I entered everything from the LFS then took my test kit and ran the same test. I entered this on my spreadsheet. Then I took tap water and ran the same test on it. These are my baselines. I knew how my test kit compared to my LFS plus what my own tap water looked like. Now when I test I can compare to my baselines. So who's test do I trust most? In my case, I trust my LFS test because they have earned my trust and they are real respected in my community and their test were withing an acceptable margin of error from my own test. Now whenever I get a new test kit I go through this process all over again. By recording all of this in excel I can now plot trends in my tank and try to figure out in advance what is going to happen down the road.

Doing it the hard way, I know, but that's just me.

[rlcline76]

Now that you have done all of this work getting your tanks set up...

First off, I am happy that you are going to utilize a quarantine tank, too many hobbyists do not and then try to figure out why they have plagues in their main tanks. Good for you!

I would have gone bare in the QT. If you need to medicate fish in that tank, the sand will soak a good chunk of it out, leaving your treatments minimal. Like glampka said, these tanks don't need to be fancy. On mine, I have a sponge filter, a powerhead, a cheap hang on back filter that I can toss a sack of carbon in if necessary, and a light.

Out of curiosity, what brand test kit are you using? Please don't say API or a strip kit. Those are misleading.

Skimmers. I have 2 20 gallons and I have a CPR BakPak for each. Some people do not use skimmers on smaller tanks, but I like mine. I can put filter media in the return chamber, it takes out the nasties and it adds to the flow of my tank. If you do get a skimmer, stay clear of FISSION nano skimmers. They are cheap and not worth the plastic.

[ZooKeeper]

well, the OT tank was bare and then for a long time the amonia level was high and never seem to come down. So, being a newbie, I threw in some rock and live sand in an attempt to get the amonia level down and well, to help the cycle along. I may turn that tank into a home for one or two fish, and get another tank for a QT. Still learning. Makes one realize just how complex a fish tank can be. Compared to my fresh water tank, my head's about to explode with all the fish myths and facts I'm accumulating.

Ed

[dhboyd1]

Did I understand that right? You had a bare tank with high ammonia?

[ZooKeeper]

Yes, that is right. high ammonia with no rock or anything other than a power filter. I also just checked the name on the test kit and it is API - American Pharam.. Inc. Is this a brand to steer clear of?

Ed

[Jeremy0322]

The power filter had to have a really bad filter cartridge in it. That is the ONLY thing that i can think of with this.

[dhboyd1]

There is nothing in your tank to produce ammonia or anything else for that matter if it is bare. If there is ammonia then you were sold water out of a bad tank, otherwise your test kit isn't right. That's why I recommend letting your LFS test the water they are selling you so you have a baseline. If it test 0 for everything when it leaves the shop then it should still read zero at home. You need something biological to produce ammonia and you don't have anything biological in the tank. Maybe I am confused but I just don't understand where the ammonia can come from.

[ZooKeeper]

took a sample of water with me today to the LFS and they use the API brand of test kits. He's getting the same results as I am - high ammonia. I am going to pull the cart out of the filter tonight - the sand is supposed to be the bio filter isn't it? I'll get a baseline on the 30 gal tank by having them test its water as well.


Ed

[Jeremy0322]

Somewhere i think but i know that rock does a way better job than the sand. I dont know if you can use just sand as your bio-filter, i am just assuming though because i have never heard of doing stricktly sand. That is just my guess though and i hope that someone better than me verifies/destroys this.

[dhboyd1]

Sand and rock both work together as your bio-filter. There are three types of bacteria that grow in your tank. Two of those need oxygen to function and they are in the upper layers of the sand and holes in the rock. The other type is anaerobic and is usually deep in the sand and in very small pores in the rock. As someone else said, for a QT tank put nothing in the tank. No sand, no rock. Then some filtration, water flow, temp control and lighting. That's it. A fish or two in the QT tank with proper water changes won't put much ammonia in the tank so there is little to clean up. The basic concept of live rock and live sand is the live part is the bacteria that is alive in both. Anything else alive in either is a bonus. Buy a salt water specific test kit and check everything. Sounds like your LFS is using the same test kit you are which is for both salt and fresh water. I am not convinced they do the job well for either.

[Jeremy0322]

I knew most of that but just out of curiosity have you ever heard of anyone just simply trying to get away with only using live sand as the bio filter. If so then how well of a job would that do. It does not seem to me like that would be enough but i have been surprised about this stuff before.

[ZooKeeper]

I thought I'd see how well a Jaubert/Plenum filter would work. Since I do a lot of home repair, I had all the basic materials to make the plenun. One needs gravel/sand or something to cover up the glass bottom and make the aquarium look like a slice of ocean - so I bought some live sand and some argronate gravel. Still researching this, but since the only thing I'm wasting is a few bucks on salt mix and time - why not investigate? I'm begining to enjoy the science.

Ed

[ZooKeeper]

I also think I have found the answer to the amount of ammonia in an empty tank. It appears the live sand I bought may actually be dead and the organic material has decomposed to the point I'm having a huge ammonia issue. Seem I should have purchased the live sand over the Internet.

Ed

[dhboyd1]

If the sand has been sitting around for a long time at the LFS you are probably right about all the dead organics in the sand. It probably wouldn't have hurt to rinse the sand in salt water first. Internet is OK but shipping sand is pricey. Saltwaterfish.com has a good price on Nature's Ocean Live sand but you have to get 40 lbs. Since you have a small tank I would do a couple of 50% water changes and then let the tank sit and continue to cycle.

Plenums have been around for a long time and some swear by them and others swear at them. The science is sound but making it work can be tricky. The science of bio-filtration is the most complex part of reef-keeping but also the most rewarding when you get it right.

[ZooKeeper]

Originally Posted by dhboyd1

science of bio-filtration is the most complex

Boy, that sounds like me! Dive right into the most difficult part of "something" Ahh, what the heck, at least it keeps me busy and out of trouble.


Ed

[ZooKeeper]

I seem to have brown algae growing in the 10gal tank - I've been told this is a good thing to see. Is it indeed a good thing? Do I need to get an animal that eats it to keep it under control if it is not a good thing?


Ed

[dhboyd1]

It's part of the cycle and will disappear with time. Hermits and snails seem to like it.

[ZooKeeper]

Then things are progressing "according to schedule" I've located what I believe the source of the ammonia to be - my house water supply seems to have changed this fall. I do have a RO unit used for drinking water, so I will just do a change on the 10gal tank using that water. Looks like I'll be investing in a seperate RO for the fish. !.5 gals from the house supply drains it. I added the smallest power head I could find, and that sure has stirred things up! A nice flow of water now and plenty of tiny bubbles.


Ed

[ScubaDrew]

Hello! I was reading this post and thought you might be interested in a little application I've been working on - see below for a brief overview but remember this is just the beginning, many more features are on the way.

Tank Tracker can be accessed off the North East Coral home page by the top menu.




You will have to sign up, or sign in if you already have an account



Once signed in, pick an existing tank, or create as many tanks as you want to track parameters for!


Once you have your tank selected, enter parameters and a graph will be generated for you automatically. You can find trends in your tank. In the near future you'll be able to post your results to your chronicle with one click!

Originally Posted by dhboyd1

I know this may sound complex but here is what I did for my tank and my test kit. First I bought RO/DI mixed salt water and fresh water from a reputable LFS and had them run all the test on the water. When I got home I built an excel spreadsheet to track the date, type of water and all the test results on the water. I entered everything from the LFS then took my test kit and ran the same test. I entered this on my spreadsheet. Then I took tap water and ran the same test on it. These are my baselines. I knew how my test kit compared to my LFS plus what my own tap water looked like. Now when I test I can compare to my baselines. So who's test do I trust most? In my case, I trust my LFS test because they have earned my trust and they are real respected in my community and their test were withing an acceptable margin of error from my own test. Now whenever I get a new test kit I go through this process all over again. By recording all of this in excel I can now plot trends in my tank and try to figure out in advance what is going to happen down the road.

Doing it the hard way, I know, but that's just me.