[samster]

My Set up:

90 gal acrylic
Rapids Pro Series Wet/Dry Filter System (PS4)
Coralife hood 48" 260W (2@65w- 12K white)(2@65w true artinic)
about 75# cruched coral
125# live rock
Tap water
1 pepperment shrimp
10-20 conehead snails
10-15 turbo snails
15-20 hermit crabs

So to my question:

Setup a month ago with only 25# of LR and no cleaner crew. Tank cycled and grew alot of brown algae in the first 2 weeks. I added a cleaner crew. All levels read good. So I waited 2 and everything was on the up and up. Last week I went and picked up 100# of LR to add to my tank, waited a week and noticed that my cleaner crew are not happy. Checked the NH3&NH4... they are off the chart. From Start toll now my tank has been running for about 4-5 weeks

PH 7.8-8.2
Alkalinity 2.5-3.5
NO2 5.0-10.0
NH3/NH4 5.0+ mg

Thats all the reading I have till my kit comes in the mail

So adding the LR freaked out my tank, the big question is.......... Should I do a water change or leave it alone and hope to see if my tank cycle again

all help and criticism are welcom. I hope I posted enough info

P.S.
I haven't got my heaters in yet or my Power head, So I have low water movement an my Temp is 70-72 deg f

[Jay03GT]

your gonna get another cycle from the new live rock. I'd try to get as much of the cleanup crew out as you can, the cycle will most likely kill them.

[stephaniesquires]

Originally Posted by samster

My Set up:
Rapids Pro Series Wet/Dry Filter System (PS4)
about 75# cruched coral
Tap water
So to my question:

Setup a month ago with only 25# of LR and no cleaner crew. Tank cycled and grew alot of brown algae. Went and picked up 100# of LR to add to my tank. waited a week and noticed that my cleaner crew are not happy. Checked the NH3&NH4... they are off the chart
Thats all the reading I have till my kit comes in the mail
So adding the LR freaked out my tank, the big question is.......... Should I do a water change or leave it alone and hope to see if my tank cycle again
all help and criticism are welcom. I hope I posted enough info
P.S.
I haven't got my heaters in yet or my Power head, So I have low water movement an my Temp is 70-72 deg f

The addition of live rock started a cycle. There are differing opinions about water changes during cycles. Some say, water changes prolong the cycle, some say change regularly. My opinion would be in your case - with critters in the tank already - either move them out till the tank cyclles, or do water changes so they have a chance.

I left some of your post as I see those things may cause you issues:
wet/dry: generally not favored. Get rid of the bio-balls or be prepared to clean them regularly.
crushed coral: again - nitrate issues with crushed coral. May want to take some out and add live sand.
TAP WATER: in SO CAL - I dont drink the water here!!! Invest in an RO/DI unit, it will help a lot in the long run!! (What part of SO CAL??)
No heater, your clean up crew may not be happy if your water dips - without heaters my tank gets to low 60's... then way up - with our weather here there is lots of variation in temps..
Power head - you need some water movement to keep your critters happy - with 'not good' water, varying temps and no water movement your livestock doesn't have a great chance....

[NAS]

Easy fix!

First: Get a good biological additive! I use CYCLE (its a hagen product). Load er up! With any biological additive you can see associated cloudy water after use. Dont sweat it it should be kinda cloudy white if it does happen. leave it it will clear in time.

Second: Now that you have some substantial waste prodction from your live rock you will start to cycle your biological system. The unfortunate truth is if there is no major souce of Ammonia/Nitrites your system will not start to establish. You are now seeing the establishment of your tank.

Third: If you are concerend about the livestock then do a 10-20% water change every other day. Make sure that the salinity is close. Dont sweat about using your tap water at this stage. As long as you are removing the chlorine with a de-chlorinator (sodium thiosulfate based, start rite or chlor-ex what ever) it will chelate most of the trace metals. Also make sure obviously that the water is coming out of the tank. Not just topping it off (that is when you run into most problems long term with tap water)

Final: WoooSAHHHH, relax. It is totaly normal for this kind of thing to happen. Expecially if the live rock was not completly cured or some one over fed/died/rotted ect.

DO NOT PUT AN ION EXCHANGE RESIN IN NOW! any kind of ammoia remover/ sponge.

It will inhibit the cycle process, and make your life really really suck latter on!

TRUST ME!

NAS

[plecosword]

Hey welcome to RB! I noticed your from southern CA!
Were is samster? ,and I think Steph covered pretty much all your issues.
Exept, you might want to consider a skimmer.

[samster]

Thanks for the help

TAP WATER: in SO CAL - I dont drink the water here!!! Invest in an RO/DI unit, it will help a lot in the long run!! (What part of SO CAL??)

I have an RO unit but my new filters are still in shipping with everything else. I forgor to add that.
I also live in the High Desart east of Bakersfield called RIDGECREST or CHINA LAKE and my water is pumped out of the ground with vary little chem for treating in it, so it's not as bad as LA or the bigger cities.

I did get a power head from my pet store to use till my come in so now I have movement and I will get a heater to start getting the temp up. I did order 2 200w still in shipping.

I don't want to seem mean but I'm trying to get out my cleaner crew but some may not make it

Exept, you might want to consider a skimmer.

my filter kit came with a skimmer

[dinor2]

If you have livestock in your tank and have the ammonia still, I would do small 5-10% water changes every day to every other day which will prolong the cycle, but, will help keep the critters alive and lower the ammonia which is the most toxic chemical in our tanks. After you see ammonia at zero, slow up on the water changes, I would go 10% every week, and test that water daily until you have a cycled tank. My tank's been running for 7 months and I just figured out how many gallons to take out at my weekly water changes so it'll be a try as you go so I wouldn't add anything else to your tank for a while.

But when I added the last batch of my lr, my tank cycled too but I only had two fish and cuc in there and I was fortunate to not even see the ammonia spike, just nitrites then nitrates.

As for adding chemicals to your tank, I personally would not do that but that's just mho. In mho, water changes, with RO/DI water! usually can solve a lot of issues with water quality.

Let us know how it's going!

[rlcline76]

I can see a fight over the biological additive. I will be bracing myself.

Really, if you can remove the CUC and allow the tank to cycle, that might be the best bet. Otherwise I would almost consider this as the price of "lesson learned".

[NATIVEVAMAN]

Once again I have to disagree with NAS.Putting all that junk in the tank is not the way to either get cycle going or hurry one to completion.Any type of additive in a tank is completly unatural and even dangerous to its inhabitants.And it would make one wonder,how do they survive on a reef without a bottle of cycle or purple up.I will once again state the what I consider to be the first rule of reef keeping.IF YOU CANT TEST FOR IT DONT PUT IT IN THE TANK.The cloud that nas is talking about is a bloom of the bacteria that eat amonia,an extreme bloom.While not dangerous by any means it is way to much way to fast.
We have discussed at length the use of tap water in a tank both as start up water and as part of regular water change's.The use of tap water adds amonia,copper,silicates,p hosphates and a host of other things that are in no way good for your tank.They promote algea blooms,cyanobacteria,diat oms and poison fish.
How does any of what you recomended promote a NATURAL AQUARIUM SYSTEM?

[stephaniesquires]

Originally Posted by rlcline76

I can see a fight over the biological additive. I will be bracing myself.

Yeah - I'm waiting for that one too!!! Figured I already gave my 2 cents, and everyone has their own way...

[jimw369]

Sorry about the situation samster. Like some one earlier in the thread said, take your CUC out and just let your tank cycle. Give the CUC to a friend or back to the store Its probably less than $100 anyway. Thats a drop in the bucket for this hobby. Do the responsible thing, save the critters and take your lumps.

In this hobby when you make a mistake...something dies. We have all been there.

Who are you NAS? Havent seen you around much before. While we are all entitled to an opinion I think most people that have been in the hobby for a while would agree the term "load her up" is not a good way to describe dosing any product into your tank.

Good to see you here!

[NAS]

Ok, let me ask you this... Is adding a bio-product going to hurt? is it expensive? is it harder on the system then a series of water changes.

All that aside, we are talking about a closed system containing 80 odd gallons. i challange you to create a complete bio-system from the ocean that is self sustaining. Simply put it will not happen. I have a lot of money in my tanks. ALOT! by god i am going to do every thing to keep the wild animal alive. I know that the bio supplements are not "naturally occuring" but it's worth keeping my live stock going. Which I have for well over 6 years.

The really hard part about keeping aquariums is that every one has their own opinion. And that is great! They base it on their own experinces. The problem is when you jump ship to often from opinion to opinon. So, Find one that works for you, evaluate the risks, and stick to it. Change only if you have really looked at all the perspectives.

[NATIVEVAMAN]

As I have said,additives in any tank are dangerous to the inhabitants.That is not just a theory its common knowledge.If there is something going on in your tank that makes you feel you need the additives then you should simply fix the problem.Almost every member of this forum is capable of maintaining a natural system and do without the addition of additives.Maintaining a tank with additives is indicative of the state of aquarium technology 10 to 15 years ago.With appropriate amounts of live rock,live sand and functional refugium all the additives become completly useless.They actually equal a "natural aquarium system".You neglected to comment on the use of tap water.

[NAS]

The goal is not to convince you to come to the dark side.

You have to keep in perspective! Personally i have not used a biological supplement or tap water in my tank for over 5 years. however, if you keep your feet grounded and consider that these things are just an extra tool at your disposal it makes sense. Not to make the whole establisment period faster/easer/ect, but less costly! and more successful to the individual aquariust. not me or you.

Secondly, the theory of this thred site is to offer alternative ideas and help. if some one is asking for help i presume there is a reason. other then to just self promote.
First, I call bull on the concept that biological additives that have cultured nitrosomonas and That thought is just silly. Something is better then nothing and ammoia spikes killing live stock of any form.


Specifically the use of tap water. My local water is very good! No chloramines and relativley free of envionmental contaminants. I have a high flow ro unint for all my aquariums. The real threat to using tap water comes from two places.

one: contamination---heavy metals, organics, fertalizers, and other enviromental crap.

two: long term build up in a salt tank of residual trace elements that dont evaporate with the water. This is truly nasty for your tank.

Starting an aquarium with tap water is ok in my opinion (PROVIDED YOUR SOURCE WATER IS REASONABLE, OTHER WISE NOT)

Absolutley not ok to use tap water in the long term for top ups and water changes. Unless you have to cause your broke.

Now, im going to stop here. there is no need to rattle on about this crap when poor samster here just wanted a little suggestion to handle his ammoia surge.

Samster, keep us posted on your success. good luck

[NATIVEVAMAN]

NAS,whenever I see someone on here recomending things that are not healthy for others tanks I will now and forever speak out.Not only is it my right to do so,I feel it is my responsability to do so.

[Taras1]

Samster -- Both NATIVEVAMAN (Dale) and NAS have years more experience than I do. Each live in areas completely differant with respect to the local water supply (PS: as I do). I do recommend, as Dale does, get a reliable RO/DI system for your water. I have to agree with Dale -- unless you really know what you are doing with additives, such as Ca, Mg, etc., be very, very careful when it comes to adding them.

More importantly, have patience. TIME is really the greatest and best additive.The seas are millions of years old. Your 90 gal tank is a microcosm. Give it time to balance - you will never replicate the conditions in the wild. I like Nilson's book Reef Secrets where he states that the water in your newly started aquarium will be vastly different than that in your aquarium five years, or even a year from now.

[jimw369]

[quote=NAS;76867]
Personally i have not used a biological supplement or tap water in my tank for over 5 years.
[quote=NAS] First: Get a good biological additive! I use CYCLE (its a hagen product). Load er up!

[quote=NAS]
Absolutley not ok to use tap water in the long term for top ups and water changes. Unless you have to cause your broke.
[quote=NAS]
Dont sweat about using your tap water at this stage.

Hmmmmm....just thinking out loud. If you use tap water cause you are broke arent you gonna be more broke trying to fix the problems that can arise for using tap water, or, after a period of time we then use an additive like "CYCLE" to fix/make better the tap water we used...AHHH this is way to confusing. Just use RO/DI water with no additives and let your tank cycle like most everyone elses.

Do you or dont you use a biological additive?

[plecosword]

you know, jim has a point.

[rlcline76]

Just when I thought the weekends were boring around here...lol

I hope you learned something Sam!

[samster]

WOW

Thanks for all the learning I have done in the last few days

I do have an RO system but it's not up and running yet. I got it from a friend that owns a pet store and it hasn't been used in years, so I got it and ordered new filters for it and all the stuff I ordered should be here on Monday. It's a low flo though

I wish to thank everyone who poasted a response. I have been thinking alot on what to do and I think I'm going to let it ride out for a week, get rid of the CUC and if nothing happens by the weekend then I'm going to do a 20% waite a week and see where it is and maybe do it again. I did think about using AmQuel+ but I found a study about it that turned me off. I used Cycle in my freash water before and nothing happened but I do know this is so differant.

Like I said before I have been reading alot on this forum and I know there are alot of differant advice out there, so i pic and chouse what fits me and my problems

AGAIN THANKS ALOT

Much RESPECT

samster

[samster]

Just a quick update. I stressed and stressed and I can't believe it.

My NH3 & NH4 is at 1.5
It went down at least by half or more. I was looking at the rocks this morning and I say a tiny feather duster and I was hoping that the levels went down. I think the brown algae stuff is growing again

[plecosword]

Thats great to hear! I hope he makes it.