[REEFMASTER]

I would like to start this thread not as a ***** session, nor to point fingers and to critisize, so I hope no one takes offense to this. But to use this as a stepping stone.
I am seeing tanks in here thatare way to young(not mature) to have in them what they do! I seen a tank that is less thab 6 months with livestock in them that should not have left the store. Agressive coral eating fish with none agressive. Corals that are in a tank that is not mature enough is destined to die.
IMO as well as other seasoned hobbyist, most reef tanks should not really start being populated until after the first year. There are inverts that can AND should be put in to help the maturing stage along,as well as, lets say damsels(green chromis) basslets and so forth......fish that can help the cycling,and maturing. As for corals, Zoa's of any kind can take a fairly "NEW" tank. But Triggers with Zoa's, Hawkfishes with any invert(thier main diet!) ACRO'S IN A YOUNG TANK! My set up is 3 yrs in the making and I just started adding acro's within the last year!
I know each tank is different, but with the Gov't stepping in and trying to Ban a lot of the stuff that we have in out tanks, i.e Tonga L/R, Banggi Cardinal fish just to name a few, and the enviro wackos and their greenhouse theory, coral reefs dissappearing, Then we have the New hobbyist. Thier tanks are young, thier pockets are deep. (I was once there.) And they ae dieing to get that beautiful tank that they have seen in the LFS, or in one of thier friends house. ask your friend how long it took them to get their tank to that point, not 3 months, not 4, not even 6. most of them will even tell you it took longet than a year!
My screenname is REEFMASTER My name is Anthony, and I am by no means a master at this. but I can tell you this, reading,asking questions can and will take you further in this hobby tan deep pockets ever will!
I started this thread because of the TOTM thread. Those are some very nice Reef Tanks, but they are WAY TO YOUNG! even for some of the livestock that I seen in some of the pics!
Not trying to ruffle any feathers here, just trying to inform some of the newbies. I was once were you are now, the newbie, the one wanting to rush everything. but I had to learn the hard way ans I lost afew things along. I do not widh that up on anyone.

[map95003]

Thanks for sharing your opinion Anthony...I've had a saltwater tank (FOWLR) for years but I was out of the hobby for a few years, now that I'm back so much has changed so I consider myself a newbie....but I don't think you're saying anything most (if not all) of the more experienced members on RB haven't advised already....the only difference is that you come across as being a bit upset...

[REEFMASTER]

sorry, not upset just kind of dismayed. I am just an opinionated person.

[Proud Texan]

Yea i agree the older the better but i have disagree on this wait a year stuff....

My 90 gal only had water in it for a month before i started adding livestock and all the coral i added are alive and thriving...

They did not show signs of stress and i still have the torch coral...
The zoo's i put in my one month old tank opened up in less than an hour after being introduced.

So no im afraid that i am proof that your opinions that livestock in tanks less than a year old are "destined to die" are COMPLETELY WRONG.

My Zoas that where added to a one month old 90 gal had about 30-50 on a rock and now i have a population of easily over 200 on all different rocks from those same Zoas from fraging.
Well it seems to me that they where not "Destined to die" It seems to me that a coral that can grow that much is not dieing but in fact THRIVING.

That lps torch coral that was my first coral that i added to a one month old tank... i had bought it with 2 heads and now it has 5.

Its funny because that it seems to me those corals where not dieing but Thriving.

My tank is only a little over 4 months old and has acropora and birdsnest that in fact arent dieing but thriving. I have already gotten 4 frags from that birdsnest and its growth is amazing.

I dont want to attack you or anything because i admire the fact that you are so patient in wanting to be sure that your tank is ready for the stuff you buy. and thats great it never hurts to be sure and wait.

All i want to do is point out the fact that some of the stuff your saying like: "most reef tanks should not really start being populated until after the first year" IS COMPLETE BELONY.

[REEFMASTER]

Ok, off to a good start. Like I said b4 each tank is different, as well as each set up. I was taught by ole school reefers, and a lot of the stuff I am preaching could just as well be out of date as I am. In this forum as well as other forums that I belong to, I see alot of this early stocking going on. I guess the old antage is true"YOU CAN NOT LEAD AN OLD HORSE TO A NEW WATERING HOLE". PT, I admire your tank as well as the individual's who's tanks are just as new and thriving just as well as my 2 yr old setup. Technology has come a long way in this hobby, even I can attest to that!

[Number_86]

I was also told the same thing about waiting at least six months before adding livestock but I didn't listen and added a few small frags to a six week old tank. Everythig in my tank has been thriving since they have been added. I even went as far as to add a long tip aneomone. I hope I am not proved wrong and my tank crashes or something. I am pretty religious with completing weekly water changes and test the parameters frequently. So far so good.......

[generaltang]

I have to agree with you to a point Reefmaster. Patience is definitally needed in this hobby. But I think the "old" rules of setting a tank up have been set to the wayside with all the live substrates and additives that are readilly available today. I don't think that these products make a tank instantly reef ready, but they do help to shorten that six month to a year cycle. One thing I agree 100% on is that anyone who enters into this hobby has a responsibilty to be able to provide to the livestock they aquire a suitable environment to inhabit, that means they are given the room they require to move and be comfortable, and they have the necessary food sources for their long-term survival. That means no tangs in a 20 gallon and no mandarins in a 1 month old sterile tank. I personally do think global warming is a reality. If it is man-made or just a regular course of nature should be the real debate (again, my own personal opinion is that we are speeding the procsess with our CO2 dumping into the atmosphere). But it is causing the degradation of the worlds reefs, coupled with other factors like pollution and destructive fishing practices. Who knows, one day the hobbyists of the world may be called upon to provide their insights and possibly a few frags from our tanks! As I see it, until the day comes when the majority of the stock brought in to the trade are aquacultured, we are simply "borrowing" from mother nature. So we should all, in good conscience, research what we buy and be able to provide to our aqautic friends the closest possible environment from which they were stripped. You are correct, Reefmaster, in that if we don't step up and take reponsibilty for the impact we have on the reefs, we will only be able to see those yellow tangs which are pretty common in peoples tanks, in text books and videos because either A) Everything we stive to keep will be on the endangerd list, or B) There will be no more reefs for us to harvest. I hope I made some kind of sense here, because I too get pretty burnt up about foolish and reckless purchasing.
P.S.
I am glad you brought up the Bangai cardinal. I just got done reading an atricle in the 1/09 issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist about them. They have no commercial purpose whatsoever besides in the hobby and their numbers are steadily decreasing in the wild. Gee, I wonder who's to blame there......Petco?

[benny z]

for people new to the hobby, i agree to an extent. a lot of that old "6-months to a year" theory was so that people could get accustomed to the hobby, learn how water chemistry works, research appropriate life for the tank, etc.

for those who know what they are doing, there is no reason you can't begin stocking immediately following the cycle - with appropriate specimens.

[e_baer]

I aslo agree to an extent. Not to say you shouldnt, wait, because you should! But a year before any major livestock goes in? IMO it all depends on how you start off your tank. If you have uncured LR and put it directly into the tank then 2 weeks alter add some coral, well yeah, it will most likely die. If you have LR that you have already cured in a seperate container, then add it to the tank and 2 weeks later add some coral, the coral will probably live. Is 2 weeks too short of a time to add coral? Yes! I would definately wait longer. Would I wait 6 months? No! Would I wait a month? Yes! I would say, depending on water chemistry of course, that waiting at least a month to add any livestock would be a great idea. Also, I would start off with easy to care for critters such as snails, crabs, an easy coral, maybe even an easy fish. Every tank is different anf all require different amounts of time until livestock can be added. But to say every tank should wait a year, or every tank should wait 6 month, or whatever the amount if time is, is all opinion. But a good average would be to wait at least a month, and when you do wait that long, add small smounts of critters at a time waiting a week or 2 before you add anything else.

-week

1-add LR and LS
2-cycle
3-cycle
4-cycle
5-cycle
6-cycle
7-(parameters have been steady for the past 3 weeks) add a CUC
8-leave tank be
9-add a single easy to care for fish
10-add some more snails
11-add a GSP frag
12-leave tank be
13- use your imagination


That is how I would do it if it were me.

[WhatReef]

Knowledge is everything, you can speed the seeding of a sand bed by adding live sand or having a total live sand bed which can speed the process of cycing a tank as well as live rock thats been curing for a long time so i think it all depends as to where you are starting from. but if there is anyone to blame for death of fish and coral its the people selling them to newbies with out asking them questions about there tanks and experience as some are just in it to make a $ and thats just sad, if i ever sell or trade something, i like to know that its going to the right home not someone with a 10 gallon salt tank wanting to add a regal tang that would just be stupid. Its sad to think there are people out there with no regard for our ocean and planet.