[Mattfish]

Originally Posted by RyanG

So who set the tank up and everything? Your LFS?

Aquatic Gallery in Milpitas, CA, Aquatic Gallery - Bring the Ocean Home, did all the design and install. Pretty complex but they make it easy.....

[Mattfish]

Originally Posted by plecosword

i like the way your head works, exept im not clear on what your thinking. Are you saying that the cost of the solaries will be cheaper overall to the MH? I kind of agree!

I missed this in the thread, but in theory, yes the Solaris should be cheaper. Depends on sveral variables, and in retrospect, avoiding a chiller is a myth, since almost all of us live in a place where a chiller in the summer is a requirement, even if for a short period of time, but the replacement of the MH bulbs, the pwoer savings, and the savings of not requiring timers, etc are real. The biggest factor will be the size of your tank - the Solaris is obviously more epxensive for a longer model, and the depth of your tank will determine if you can use the G (250W equivalent) or the H (400W equivalent) series. The price difference isn't small, so if you've gor a deep tank, you'll need the H, not the G....

[plecosword]

Originally Posted by Mattfish

I missed this in the thread, but in theory, yes the Solaris should be cheaper. Depends on sveral variables, and in retrospect, avoiding a chiller is a myth, since almost all of us live in a place where a chiller in the summer is a requirement, even if for a short period of time, but the replacement of the MH bulbs, the pwoer savings, and the savings of not requiring timers, etc are real. The biggest factor will be the size of your tank - the Solaris is obviously more epxensive for a longer model, and the depth of your tank will determine if you can use the G (250W equivalent) or the H (400W equivalent) series. The price difference isn't small, so if you've gor a deep tank, you'll need the H, not the G....

well i have a 55g so not that deep so i would whant to replace my t-5 idea. I would not need a chiller for sure, even i warm weather the tank gets up to 82 the most.
But i will not get MH for sure.
how much watts does your fixture consume?

[Mattfish]

I'm honestly not sure, but here's the Solaris web site - Solaris LED Hood PFO lighting Inc > Home ( DNN 4.0.3 ), and you ought to call them and ask the questions - I've called a lot and they're always nice and helpful. Patrick Ormiston (hence the name PFO lighting), is the founder and has gotten on the phone several times to answer questions.

[rlcline76]

Mike, did you ever ask them why they suggested so many additives? You might want to show off the menu they gave...see if you can get some insight, perhaps from pogodzib who also has a big tank.

[mtfabel]

Love the Red spotted Foxface. I have always wanted one of those. Tank looks awesome. Keep us updated.

[Mattfish]

Originally Posted by rlcline76

Mike, did you ever ask them why they suggested so many additives? You might want to show off the menu they gave...see if you can get some insight, perhaps from pogodzib who also has a big tank.

They say that this is the right combination to keep the tank healthy and from their experience is always the best combo. They did suggest basline testing, so the owner did add that to the mix, which made sense. I'll post it as soon as I can for general viewing and commentary by Alex, et al.

Originally Posted by mtfabel

Love the Red spotted Foxface. I have always wanted one of those. Tank looks awesome. Keep us updated.

That one's actually an Ornage Spotted Rabbit. Originally, I thought a Gold Spotted, but we checked and he's an Orange Spot. And thanks!

[Mattfish]

Disregard the last post - I couldn't edit so here's a corrected one:

I almost forgot to post this - here's the dosing suggestions. We got a few more test kits so we'll be getting a baseline in the next few days on everything, then continue testing the unusual ones weekly to see how we do:

Weekly Supplements – For 130 Gallon

Monday
Kent Essential Elements................. ................ 1 ½ capfuls........ Into Sump
Kent Coral-Vite..................... ......................... . 2 capfuls............ Into Sump
Phyto-Feast (in refrigerator)............ .............. 7 capfuls............ Inside tank

Tuesday
Reef Magnesium................ ......................... ... 6 teaspoons...... Into Sump
Reef Strontium................ ......................... ...... 6 ½ capfuls........ Into Sump
Kent MicroVert................ ......................... ...... 2 ½ capfuls........ Inside Tank

Wednesday
Kent Lugol’s Solution................. ..................... 6 drops.............. Into Sump
Phyto-Feast (in refrigerator)............ .............. 7 capfuls............ Inside tank

Thursday
Kent Coral-Vite..................... ......................... . 2 capfuls............ Into Sump
Kent Essential Elements................. ................ 1 ½ capfuls........ Into Sump
Kent MicroVert................ ......................... ...... 2 ½ capfuls........ Inside Tank

Friday
Reef Magnesium................ ......................... ... 6 teaspoons...... Into Sump
Reef Strontium................ ......................... ...... 6 ½ capfuls........ Into Sump
Phyto-Feast (in refrigerator)............ .............. 7 capfuls............ Inside tank

Saturday
Kent MicroVert................ ......................... ...... 2 ½ capfuls........ Inside Tank

Sunday
Phyto-Feast (in refrigerator)............ .............. 7 capfuls............ Inside tank
Water Change Every Week..................... ........ 20 gallons.......... First 2 Months
Water Change Every Other Week................... 20 gallons.......... After 2 Months

A lot more than we used to do. We're also switching from using Arctipods to using a 3:1 ratio of Mysis to Brine for the twice-daily feedings. And Kent Vitamin C along with the Garlic Xtreme in the food - 1 drop of each per food cube, plus a cube sized piece of Cyclopeeze. The Mandarin was the only thing really needing pods, but he does fine on brine, and pretty soon (ok, maybe 2-3 months) our fuge will be producing copepods for him anyway.

They also suggested those larger frozen shrimp (I think they're large brine?) 2 pieces, twice weekly for the beautiful new white with blue/green tipped Sebae that the clowns now call home.

Besides the fact that dosing without testing isn't a smart way to go, which we're correcting to test all the usuals plus now Magnesium, Strontium, and Iodine, any thoughts on this? I know it's always a controversial subject. But these guys do beautiful tanks, so I'm guessing that this is their proven track record method. Oh, and BioSea salt mix.

[rlcline76]

Besides the fact that dosing without testing isn't a smart way to go, which we're correcting to test all the usuals plus now Magnesium, Strontium, and Iodine, any thoughts on this? I know it's always a controversial subject. But these guys do beautiful tanks, so I'm guessing that this is their proven track record method. Oh, and BioSea salt mix.

I know. We've been over this. Many of us are not to keen on asking the LFS (talented or not) about what we should do with our systems. I think it is important for you to understand these things for yourself...get your reading time in, ask some other hobbyists for their opinions.

[pogodzib]

Wow, wow, wow. DO NOT DOSE THAT MUCH!!!

Here's another way of looking at what they are recommending:

Kent Essential Elements - 1-2 times manufacturer's recommended dosage
Kent Coral-Vite - 2-4 times manufacturer's recommended weekly dosage
Kent MicroVert - high end of manufacturer's recommended weekly dosage
Kent Lugol's solution - 1 drop over manufacturer's recommended weekly dosage
Phyto-Feast (in refrigerator) - Not sure cap size, but each dosage is well above recommended amount unless the cap only holds 1 teaspoon
Reef Magnesium = High end of manufacturer's recommendations
Reef Strontium - High end of manufacturer's recommendations

Water Change 20% weekly for 2 months, 36% monthly after 2 months

When have you ever seen a manufacturer recommend a dosage LOWER than what is the most beneficial. Usually, they recommend a higher dosage than what is needed so they make more money. On top of that, you are changing out 36% of the water on a monthly basis, which is replacing trace elements AND pulling out any excess elements from OVERDOSING. Overdosing trace elements is one of the biggest mistakes that newbies make. What it does is makes your tank more dependent upon these additive, less stable, and costs you a bunch of money that isn't necessary. I was in the same boat myself at one point. It wasn't until much later that I learned that water changes alone can do wonders. And BTW, two 10% water changes per month is plenty if you have a good skimmer, feed lightly, and have a good amount of LR.

Here is a couple pics of my old tank before it got taken down and moved 2 months ago.





The ONLY things that I dose is the Randy Holmes-Farley homemade two part solution, which is essentially just alk, calcium, and magnesium.

And incase you think more is required if you keep SPS corals or clams, here's a couple more pics. I don't spot feed anything.

[glampka]

Feeding twice a day!!! I see phosphate & nitrate problems not too far in the future!

[plecosword]

wow, i never get tired of looking at that tank, its so awsome!!

[Mattfish]

OK, so in order of responses - first - thanks to all for the information and suggestions. I consider our last tank a trial and error, and this one as our first real attempt to do things right. I recognize that "by the book" is a variable state in this hobby, in that there are a few right ways, and a whole otta wrong ways.

Becky - reading is key, and I'm backed up on this. Hopefully, the holiday time will let me dig out, as I really want to have a better working knowledge of this - rote is not a way to operate a tank. And following the lfs' recommendation by rote IS a mistake. Validating and understanding is the right way to go.

Alex - I absolutely get the point about wanting to sell stuff, being a sales guy myself. I'll check out their math which I've been meaning to do, but a thousand things have gotten in the way. Look for a response later today or tomorrow, and that will undoubtedly have more questions for you - I accept your experience for what it is - learning over years of what works, and I need to emulate that. I also want to see if I can figure out whay they recommend the levels they do. The water changes, however, are a point of confusion to me - isn't a more frequent water change better than too little? Or does too much also create problems at the level they're suggesting?

Gary - We used to feed our first tank 3 trimes a day - clearly way too much, although many of the Scott Michael books suggest feeding some fish three times per day. Isn't a morning and evening feeding a reasonable thing if the quantities are right? Again, I know how many years of experience you also have, so you know the question isn't a challenge, it's a search for understanding more. If we need to cut back to once a day, we'll do that. This tank has the advantage of much better flow, much better natural filtration and less gathering/hiding places where nitrates can build up.

Pleco - thanks! We just had them here doing the weekly water change and maintenance because of my back, so it looks even cooler. We added a beautiful Scolymia and a ricordia, along with a very nice zoanthid last night. I'll try to post more pics later if possible.

[Mattfish]

New scolymia:




New Ricordia:




Old Sun Coral with Lawnmower Blenny:

[plecosword]

wow thats a lot of shrimp

[Mattfish]

OK Brian, so I had a chance to do the math, and here's what I found including questions:

First, my tank is 130 gallons + 35 gallon sump/fuge. I'm assuming to still use supplements for 125-130 gallons though, assuming the rock and sand take up the same space as what the sump does.

Second, I understand the issue of creating a supplement-dependent tank, and agree that less is better.

Third, some supplements, like Phyto-Feast have always been a part of my tank (which doesn't make it right, but does make it fairly normal)

Fourth, I add 1 drop of Garlic Xtreme and 1 drop of Vitamin C per cube of food.

Fifth, dosing without testing doesn't make sense, so I still need to keep testing for those things we don't test daily for today, like Mg, Strontium, Iodine. We do test Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH, Alkalinity, Calcium daily right now.

Sixth, just because a manufacturer recommends something, doesn't make it right, particularly in view of #5 above.

So:

Essential Elements: recommends 1 capful per 50 gallons, every two weeks. So for my size tank, that means 2 1/2 capfuls every 1-2 weeks. The lfs has me doing 1 1/2 capfuls 2 x per week, so this seems to be at the high end of recommendation.

Coral-Vite: recommends 1-2 capfuls per 50 gallons every week. For my size tank, this is 3 3/4 caps per week. The lfs has me doing 2 caps, 2 x per week. This again seems about right.

PhytoFeast: recommends 1-5 tsps/caps per 100 gallons per day. For my tank, 6 caps per day. Lfs has me doing 7 caps 4 x per week. So we're a little under the recommendation here.

Magnesium: recommends 1 tsp per 20 gallons twice per week. For my tank, 5 tsps, twice per week. Lfs has me doing 6 tsps twice per week - so a bit high, but we also have a lot of corals just in, and even with a Calcium Reactor, our pH is dropping without the magnesium supplement.

Strontium: recommends 1 cap per 20 gallons twice per week. For my tank 6 caps twice per week. Lfs has me doing 6 1/2 caps twice per week, so a bit high.

MicroVert: recommends 1 capful per 55 gallons, up to 3 times per week. For my tank, 2 caps, up to 3 times per week. Lfs has me doing 2 1/2 caps three times per week, so a bit high.

Lugol's/Iodine: recommends 1 drop per 25 gallons per week. For my tank, 5 drops per week. Lfs has me doing 6 drops per week, so a little high.

So I'm a little confused about your numbers below - not disputing, just trying to learn.

Also, about water change recommendations - if a water change is a good thing, aren't I doing the right thing here? 20 gallons - 25 gallons per week should be good, yes?

Finally for this post, we've just added a lot of fish and corals in quickly - yes, not the best way, but it was time to bring them home from the lfs. This would seem to mean I can expect an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle spike, which we're getting and being careful about - it's receding reasonably and as expected now, and we should also expect a calcium/pH issue, due to Magnesium depletion from the coral, and we are, and observing and monitoring.

So it seems that other than a high load which we're watching, and a need to test the other things daily mentioned above that we don't right now, to me, from what I thought I'd learned, I'm getting predictable results, am taking the right steps to mitigate, and getting the responses to this mitigation.

Help me understand here. Consider me a learning sponge - I'm not getting the numbers you state below, and feel like we're on the right path.

If you have the time, and want to PM me your #, I'd be happy to call and talk this through to understand it better. I don't want to make this tank my laboratory, I want it to be beautiful and balanced.

Thanks!

[Mattfish]

Originally Posted by plecosword

wow thats a lot of shrimp

No kidding - my wife is shrimp-crazy. I tried to talk her out of it, but if you're married, you understand....

[glampka]

More feedings = more waste = more problems.
Fish in the wild do not eat every day. Most are grazers - a little here, a little there. Fish in an aquarium are pigs - they'll just keep eating everytime you throw food in the tank. There is really no need to feed twice a day or even once every day.
Now if memory serves me correctly, the new tank has less than 1 lb/gal of LR which means your biological filter is definitely on the low side of the recommended levels. How does it handle the waste from a heavily stocked tank? There are 2 types of waste - solid & liquid. Better flow should help keep the solid waste suspended for eventual removal by skimmer or other mechanical means before it starts to break down. Liquid waste requires the biological filtration to break it down.

[pogodzib]

Maybe the "caps" that I looked at are smaller caps than the ones on your bottles or I miscalculated in some areas. Different size bottles have different cap sizes and I computed the numbers quickly while I was in the middle of some other things. One of the things to remember is that the manufacturer is not planning on you dosing virtually every type of additive they make and they recommend the high end of dosages usually. Look at what one additive alone (Kent Essential Elements) has in it - Iodine, Magnesium, Strontium, etc... Your dosing those, along with other minerals in multiple additives. One easy way for that I could test for to see if I was overdosing was with the Magnesium supplement. If I dosed as much as the manufacturer recommends, my Mag would be way too high.

Now, for some of MY thoughts.

Can doing a bunch of small water changes hurt your system? I say yes. First off, it isn't necessary if you have the correct amount of LR, a good skimmer, and light feedings then your just wasting your money. Now, the reason why I say yes is because the bacteria and critters (pods) within your system multiply until they get to the count that balances the waste in your system with the amount of bacteria and pods that break down the waste. In a tank that is artificially kept clean due to water changes, if you go on vacation or skip a water change, your system isn't fully prepared to handle the skipped water change. If your system is used to less water changes and has proper filtration means, it is not being artificially being kept clean by water changes and the water changes are primarily used to replace trace elements. I do 10% monthly water changes and have seen people go many (6-12) months without water changes and they/we have zero nitrates.

Finally, I think it would be nice to see a side by side compilation of what people dose in their tanks versus how long they have kept reef tanks. My guess, is that the average beginner dose at least double what most experienced reef keepers dose, even though the experience reefers keep more demanding corals. The reason being is that we have learned that overdosing is bad and "less is more" in this hobby. Not to mention the money that can be wasted on additives that you don't see any noticable difference in corals and they make a tank less stable.

Here's my dosage routine on my 220 gal tank (260gal TWV) - 1 tablespoon of pickling lime (kalk) added daily through my ATO. 3 oz. of each part of a homemade two part (calc/alk) solution daily, and a little magnesium dosing when my test kits indicate that my mag is starting to drop. Once a week, I try to add a capful of phytoplex or chromoplex. No other dosings and I can frag off 20+ different types of corals on a weekly basis without needing to worry about over fragging.

Regarding feedings. I feed about 5 times a week. Feeding the fish twice a day plus all the liquid foods for the corals is a guaranteed way to have high nitrates.

[Mattfish]

OK, makes sense. Doesn't the fuge act as a bio filter of a sort?

Doesn't change the issue of feedings, so I've got to think about that. Of course, in the wild, the tank equivalent is much more mature (algae, growth, other bio-foods available) than my current tank situation, so I suspect that if I'm getting this, then as my tank matures, the fuge becomes more productive, the rock settles in, the water becomes more stable - another 2-4 months - I can certainly feed less, because the water and environment will be more supportive of life.

But is that true now with a relatively new tank?

[Mattfish]

Alex - thanks for all this - I'm going to print, read and absorb. A lot of good points. I do want to hear everyone else's dosing info, as you requested below, and one related factor - age of tank. I suspect that the longer your tank is up, and of course the more experience you have, the easier this gets to keep on top of.

No surprise there. But in the meantime, it's clear that I still have plenty of learning to do. And reading...

[pogodzib]

New tanks require less feedings than established tanks because they don't have established cod and bacteria populations to break the foods down and typically have more algae issues. Yes, the fish need food, but having less food and good water quality is much more important than having a lot of food and poor water quality. Hence, one of the reasons for more water changes on a new setup. I'd feed that same amount of food on any tank, regardless of age.

[Mattfish]

OK, so on a 125g tank, with lots of fish and coral, we've been feeding:

3 mysis cubes, 1 brine cube, and 1 cyclopeeze cube-sized chunk with 5 drops each of garlic and Vitamin C in the morning, and

3 mysis cubes, and 1 brine cube with 4 drops each of garlic and Vitamin C in the evening.

Too much? Too little? Suggestions?

OK, wait - brain just kicked in - next post in 5 minutes with ist of fish....

[Mattfish]

OK, fish list, near as I can check quickly, but substantially correct:

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]CommonName[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Qty[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]6 Line Wrasse[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Firefish[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Goldspotted Rabbitfish[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Bicolor Blenny[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Chocolate Surgeonfish[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Scribbled Rabbitfish[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Arc Eye Hawkfish[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Yellow Headed Sleeper Goby[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Midas Blenny[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]1[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Sunrise Anthias[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]2[/SIZE][/FO