[godzilla4rilla]

I have a 46 gallon mixed reef, mainly lps corals and a few clams. I have about 75 pounds of live rock in my tank. And i have a 15 Gallon wet dry that i slowly removed the bio balls out of a couple of months ago. I have put 5 pd's of live rock in my wet dry/ sump. I was wondering if i need more rock in the sump even though i have enough in the main display?

[spanko]

More rock never hurts as it results in more surface area for nitrifying bacteria. If you have a light you can put over it maybe some macro algae to help to remove nutrients from the water.

[WILLIAM1]

Ok so this is the theory on LR in a wet dry. Think about it. You take out the bio balls why, To help keep nitrates down correct. Then add LR to the sump for what reason. The LR is doing the same thing as the bio balls if you think about it, building up nitrates. This is the same responce I got when I did this. Eventually bought a new refugium. You should figure out a way to add some biosediment to the wet/dry with a light thats ran opposite of the tank light and some cheato. Now this will start to help reduce nitrates and start a better filter for you.....

[jimw369]

Originally Posted by WILLIAM1

Ok so this is the theory on LR in a wet dry. Think about it. You take out the bio balls why, To help keep nitrates down correct. Then add LR to the sump for what reason. The LR is doing the same thing as the bio balls if you think about it, building up nitrates. This is the same responce I got when I did this. Eventually bought a new refugium. You should figure out a way to add some biosediment to the wet/dry with a light thats ran opposite of the tank light and some cheato. Now this will start to help reduce nitrates and start a better filter for you.....

ALERT!!!!

Common sense applied!
Common sense applied!
Common sense applied...

Especially if you already have a good amount of LR in your tank.

[jimw369]

Originally Posted by WILLIAM1

Ok so this is the theory on LR in a wet dry. Think about it. You take out the bio balls why, To help keep nitrates down correct. Then add LR to the sump for what reason. The LR is doing the same thing as the bio balls if you think about it, building up nitrates. This is the same responce I got when I did this. Eventually bought a new refugium. You should figure out a way to add some biosediment to the wet/dry with a light thats ran opposite of the tank light and some cheato. Now this will start to help reduce nitrates and start a better filter for you.....

I guess Id better further explain my thoughts.

Live rock does not produce Nitrates. It helps reduce them. I see the live rock as a place where bacteria lives so it can break down nitrates as part of the overall denitrification process in our tanks.

Bio-balls collect nitrate on them where it can be manually removed by the aquarist instead of the bacteria doing the job.

What I liked about Williams thoughts was (and I agree) with limited space in our sumps the, sand, "biosediment", and cheato are much more effective at reducing nitrates than LR stuffed in our sumps and offer other added benefits to the tank as well.

[WILLIAM1]

LR does not produce nitrates that is correct it does help reduce them if properly used I would think. From what I have heard in the past is that if the LR is not sumereged than it is similar to bio balls with the water just flowing over them Dont know how this would really work. Thats what I meant about the nitrates. I didnt see any difference in parameters with the bio ball LR swap. I did see some great changes when I installed my new refugium thoe.

[spanko]

Okay here I go.

Ammonia produced by decaying organic matter, consumed by aerobic bacteria with the resultant byproduct of nitrite.

Nitrite consumed by another aerobic bacteria that results in the byproduct nitrate.

Now it gets sticky for us marine aquarists.

Nitrate is consumed by an anaerobic bacteria with a byproduct of nitrogen gas.

Where it gets sticky is the aquarists ability to provide enough anaerobic area for enough bacteria to reside in to convert the nitrates into nitrogen gas. In most aquariums this is not able to be done. The amount of rock to provide enough area free from oxygen (anaerobic) is mostly not practical. A DSB is also a way to provide the anaerobic zone but again most aquarists don't understand DSB's and how to correctly set them up, as well as the drama in the community of the affect\effect of DSB's long term.
So I guess where I am coming from here is Live rock and sand in a sump or fuge are just more areas to house aerobic bacteria. The best way for the marine "hobbyist" to reduce nitrate is through:
Mechanical filtration which removes the organic matter before it becomes ammonia.
Water changes that reduce the nitrate by dilution.
Skimmers that remove organics before they become ammonia.

Remember, live rock and bio-media do not collect nitrates, they collect organic materials that in turn become nitrate some where down the road. This is why people turkey baste their rocks, clean their bio media, and try to get detritus (organic matter) out of the system before it becomes a problem.

The above is my understanding of the way it works.

[jimw369]

Originally Posted by spanko

Okay here I go.

Ammonia produced by decaying organic matter, consumed by aerobic bacteria with the resultant byproduct of nitrite.

Nitrite consumed by another aerobic bacteria that results in the byproduct nitrate.

Now it gets sticky for us marine aquarists.

Nitrate is consumed by an anaerobic bacteria with a byproduct of nitrogen gas.

Where it gets sticky is the aquarists ability to provide enough anaerobic area for enough bacteria to reside in to convert the nitrates into nitrogen gas. In most aquariums this is not able to be done. The amount of rock to provide enough area free from oxygen (anaerobic) is mostly not practical. A DSB is also a way to provide the anaerobic zone but again most aquarists don't understand DSB's and how to correctly set them up, as well as the drama in the community of the affect\effect of DSB's long term.
So I guess where I am coming from here is Live rock and sand in a sump or fuge are just more areas to house aerobic bacteria. The best way for the marine "hobbyist" to reduce nitrate is through:
Mechanical filtration which removes the organic matter before it becomes ammonia.
Water changes that reduce the nitrate by dilution.
Skimmers that remove organics before they become ammonia.

Remember, live rock and bio-media do not collect nitrates, they collect organic materials that in turn become nitrate some where down the road. This is why people turkey baste their rocks, clean their bio media, and try to get detritus (organic matter) out of the system before it becomes a problem.

The above is my understanding of the way it works.

Thanks for saying that much better than I could have.
You touched on something that I believe is key also. Mechanical filtration. DSBs and LR seem to get most of the credit but IMO a good quality finely tuned skimmer is a persons #1 line of filtration. I would certainly for go LR in my sump for an upgraded skimmer. Of course when all these are combined we get the best results.

[WILLIAM1]

Sometimes I forget everything I learn sisnce theres so much ..... I stand partialy corrected....