[unclejed]

Well I used the word fix, but, the real fix is staying on top of your water quality. However, while we are all trying to figure it out when we have a nitrate problem or just wish to get it lower, I re-tried "algone", a product that the lfs around me are all swearing about. Of course my first time around I didn't have success and gave up on it. When talking to a girl at one of my trusted lfs she told me it absolutely works, but, you must follow the directions to a tee. I had not done that the first time. I just threw a pack in and kind forgot about it then remembered and took it out, threw in another and forgot about it and when I finally took that one out the nitrates really hadn't gone down. They didn't go up but hadn't come down. This time I followed the instructions religiously and in 14 days the nitrates went from 40 ppm to less than 5! For all you who are looking for some way to get a grip on stubborn nitrates, this is it!

[NATIVEVAMAN]

When you add a chemical to any other chemical be it in an aquarium or chemistry lab you always create a third chemical or compound.Chemicals like algone remove nothing from the tank.They bind nitrates into a chemical soup,and only temporarily.The chemical soup will soon break down and release the nitrates back into the tank.If you have high nitrates do the right thing and eliminate the source.Improve your skimmer efficiency,cut back on the feeding,reduce your bio load to reasonable levels increase the amount of live rock or sand in the tank.If you dont,soon enough your nitrates will be right back where they started and you will need more allgone.Please dont ener into this vicious cycle.You can actually eliminate a problem instead of covering it up.

[rlcline76]

I don't use algone. Really, there are a ton of Randy Holmes Farley articles in the Library...breaks it all down. Nitrates are one of those things that will just build and build. We try to do stuff like decent skimming, use macroalgae, try not to overfeed, DSBs, denitrators and so on and so forth.
My question, does that Algone bottle tell you what to monitor when you use it? Any parameters that could go out of whack?
Jury is still out on what health damages nitrates can have on livestock (meaning we don't know each and every little thing yet). However, it is not as damaging as ammonia. It would probably been just as easy (cheaper, too) to do some good water changes, change some bad feeding habits, maybe take a couple of fish back to the LFS if you have overstocked than to even wonder what is in that bottle and what it could do.

[unclejed]

It doesn't appear you looked it up on their site. It is not a liquid or chemical, it is in a pouch and yes, it binds the nitrates so as to stop them from getting into the main tank. That is why I emphasized youhave to follow the instructions "to a tee".

[jimw369]

HHHmmmm...sounds like it has worked as a temporary fix. Cant say too much not being familiar with the product. Read the website about it. Sounds interesting but probably nothing more than a nitrate sponge with a new twist of sorts.

I think I saw where you have 25 years experience and I have less than a year so Im probably telling you something you already know. Most things happen slow in a salt tank, even the bad stuff. Not like the popular saying "only bad things happen fast..." No body winds up with Cyano, Bryopsis, hair algae, high levels of Nitrates and bunches of other stuff overnight. It all starts and happens over time. You could be using a product that works short term and is doing other damage to your tank that at this time is undetectable but down the road might have consequences.

Are you going to continue to use this product as the website implies...change every month...?

Have you found what is really causing the higher than desireable nitrate levels and if so what actions have you taken?

Also, with the amount of new people that are here at RB, I would not be posting the use of this product as a way to deal with Nitrates but rather good marine husbandry techniques. IMHO

I appreciate your willingness to try new products and hope you continue to post how your tank is doing so we may all learn more about this product.

[rlcline76]

Well, while I search all over the Algone website...

I am not finding the means of nitrate binding...if there is no filter media/chemical means of some sort then I would be led to believe that it is nothing more than a high priced sponge. I doubt it. Leon, you are the one with the product, save me a little time and tell me the magical compound.

Thanks

[rlcline76]

Although, I will say that Fenner says that this product is non toxic and safe.

https://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...ct~CP2151.html

[unclejed]

Go to their site again rlcline76 and on the left side click on "nitrogen cycle" There is a lot of information not only on that but look at some of the other links. I'm not "telling" any one to "do" anything, I'm simply sharing info, concepts and ideas much like I do as a bowling coach. People can take the information provided and utilize it or not at their discretion. Happy reef/fish keeping to one and all!

[rlcline76]

Or you could just look at the box and tell me what I want to know. I don't need to know what it claims to do...just curious to know how it does it.

[pogodzib]

Looks like the miracle product that we've been all waiting for. Directly from their site:

Algone® in Your Aquarium
For Crystal Clear and Balanced Aquariums

Inhibits Algae Growth - Removes Nitrates - Reduces Ammonia and Nitrites - Clears Cloudy and Green Water - Produces Crystal Clear Water - Balances the Water Column

And here's how it works:

Algone® - What Is It And What Does It Do?


Algone is based on a biological process, during which naturally present microorganisms contained in Algone use available nitrogen compounds as a source of nutrition. The result of this nutrient uptake is micro-bacterial protein enabling Algone to retain the nitrogenous waste while eliminating the re-release into the aquatic environment.

Algone enhances the conditions of nitrifying bacteria, by creating a higher dissolved oxygen content (resulting from the conversion of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to protein) and making a carbon source readily available as additional nutrition for nitrifying bacteria.

Algone also has a inhibitory effect on hydrogen sulfite (a result of failing filtration and high nutrient levels) which is highly toxic to fish.

Ammonia, nitrite and especially nitrate, are constantly being produced. Nitrifying bacteria need oxygen -which is in ample supply in the aquarium- to convert ammonia to nitrite and finally to nitrate. The conversion of nitrate (denitrification) requires an absence of oxygen. Aquariums usually do not provide enough oxygen free areas for the establishment of denitrifying bacteria. The flow of the nitrates to these areas is even less common. Water flow will further restrict these rare settlements due to the increased distribution of oxygen.

Algone significantly lowers the frequency of water changes and the amount we change. However, it is not a substitute for water changes.

Nah, maybe not. I'll pass. There is no magic cure. Yes, there are ways to mask problems and/or alternate ways of solving problems, but simple water changes are the best way. Not only does it help keep nitrates down if you have problems with nitrates, it also helps replenish lost elements that are taken up by your corals. If you do thinks the correct way with stocking, maintainence, equipment, it isn't that difficult to never have detectable nitrates.

[rlcline76]

I am going to remain a skeptic.

Thanks for navigating for me, Brian. I need more coffee!

[NATIVEVAMAN]

It just seems like there is something new every day to rid our tanks of the dreaded nitrate which is by far the least toxic of the big three.Liquids,powders,spo nge's and lets not forget the latest addition to the arsenal the coil denitrater (bio balls in a pipe lol)I still say take the money you would spend on that junk and buy live rock and sand and even add a refugium and they will take care of the problem on perminent basis.

[jimw369]

[QUOTE For all you who are looking for some way to get a grip on stubborn nitrates, this is it![/QUOTE]

QUOTE I'm not "telling" any one to "do" anything, I'm simply sharing info, concepts and ideas much like I do as a bowling coach." QUOTE

Sorry Unclejed....called it like I saw it.

[pogodzib]

I hate having to tell people that a hot, new item is not a long term, permanent solution or the magic bullet that everyone is waiting for. Unfortunately though, like Nativevaman said, there are new products coming out daily that claim to be the magic solution, but very seldom do they pan out, esp. when it comes to chemical compounds.

[emccullough1]

There are new a better way's of doing thing all the time and some one needs to try them to see there value.

Honestly I'm surprised some of you ever tried Skimmers, BSB, Refugium's, T5's light, LR, LS and Macroalgae. Just to name a few. After all The original glass box held water just fine.

[unclejed]

Thanks emccullough1, maybe being a free spirit from the 60s' has given me (and perhaps you) a more open mind to new or different things. I scrutinize things very carefully before I "indulge" in them.

[pogodzib]

The reason why I don't trust algone's claims are lengthy. It is a product that has been around for years. At first, it claimed to get rid of the algae, hence probably where it's name came from. If I recall correctly, it wasn't until later that they started claiming that it would help reduce phosphates, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, hydrogen sulfite, etc... How would any product, that as the claim, that doesn't use chemicals balance the water column? The water column would already be balanced if no chemical addition is necessary. Secondly, why would the "naturally occuring microorganisms stay on the algone pad to consume the nitrate? Surely, these microorganisms aren't too large that they can't move off the pad and into other parts of the tank where they can thrive. Nitrate converting microorganisms are typically anerobic organisms that need to be deprived of oxygen. Algone claims that it increases the dissolved oxygen. There are other chemicals that do this. Increasing the dissolved oxygen increases how fast waste gets broken down and makes it easier for the skimmer to remove organics. If the product does increase the D.O. content in the water, it MAY help the skimmer process the waste. Another question is why would the carbon need to be removed during treatment if it doesn't contain any chemicals? Carbon pulls chemicals out of the water. How would pulling chemicals out of the water harm a product that doesn't contain chemicals? I could keep going, but I'll let someone answer those questions first.

BTW - Yes, I have tried their product once, years ago on a planted FW tank to see if it would help control some algae issues. The algone product is believed by many to essentially be a product made with barley straw. Barley straw is used in ponds fairly often. It decomposes and produces a chemical, I forgot it's name right now, that helps prevent algae from forming. Hence, the answer to the question asked above to why they say to remove the carbon before using the product. One of hte byproducts of this process also forms, hydrogen peroxide, hence the raising of the dissolved organics since it is a good oxidizing agent. So yes, the product does contain chemicals, and no, I don't want it in by tank since it isn't in the ocean at high levels naturally.

[rlcline76]

Those are some good points.

[unclejed]

One of my favorite Led Zeppelin songs is "Ramble on".

[jimw369]

Quote: The algone product is believed by many to essentially be a product made with barley straw. Barley straw is used in ponds fairly often. It decomposes and produces a chemical, I forgot it's name right now, that helps prevent algae from forming.[/quote]


YES!!! That makes sense! I was a building superintendant for a construction company about 10 years ago and we used the barley straw in plastic looking burlap sacks in sediment ponds.

[Gohn]

This was a GREAT thread! Thanks to Leon the bowling coach + all the others for their input. For me as an adult and long time salt tanker with a history of pretty good luck, I like to read all sides to make up my own mind to try it or not. (Thanks RF)This forum is not personal - just ideas to use or not - all input welcome. I REALLY appreciate all the well meaning and HIGHLY informative feedback from everyone else. I may or may not ever use algone and will weigh all the input, read the latest out this year. I do not want to take an unnecessary shortcut that may harm the tank and yet I don't want to be a Luddite and pooh pooh everything new. Just for fun I went to the Library + took out salt tank books from not that long ago (20 - 40 yrs.) So much of what much of the things they said in those books by salt experts are considered nonsense now. Keep good husbandry and safe practices (yes I change my water often) being skeptical about new products is healthy but if I listened to those books from the 70's + 80's . I would treat Live Rock as if it were poison and that is just a small sample. Be very skeptical but also keep an open mind has always been my philosophy of navigating this hobby/science. Also, always listen to the ideas of others and respectfully disagree without demeaning anyone. How did we get from those "old" ways to our new "perfected" ones? Just my 2 cents.

[renoreefer]

After reading all the post to this thread, did anybody just remember good old routine water changes, minimizes unhealthy compounds, renews needed elements and makes you ocean friends very happy. THIER LIVES ARE IN YOUR HANDS SO BE CAREFUL THERE IS NOT A ENDLESS SUPPLY FOR YOU TO WASTE ON MAGIC POTIONS

How would you like to drink chemicals

[NATIVEVAMAN]

Reno,I agree with the water change plan,its good to keep things in balance.And water change's to correct a nitrate problem are good.However the nitrate problem was caused by either doing something wrong or having an inadaquate filtration system.Or a combination of both.I am an advocate of finding the problem and resolving it.I have two cardinal rules to live by in a reef tank,"NOTHING GOOD EVER HAPPENS QUICKLY IN A REEF TANK" and"IF YOU CANT TEST FOR IT DONT PUT IT IN THE TANK....EVER".Simply put,the way to cure doing something wrong in a reef tank is to do it right,how much simpler does it get?By the way Reno its good to have another reefer around who subscribes to the "no junk in the tank theory".
John,I know that from time to time it may seem that some of us are being less than kind when resonding to some things here on RB.For my part and I believe for Brians part nothing could be further from the truth.There are times when a minimal passing comment will do nicely,however from time to time a subject comes along that we are passionate about,so it gets more than a passing comment.I do not often presume to speak for Brian but I feel safe in saying for him and myself that if we didnt care about others tanks and there health we might be in a chat room somewhere talking trash lol.

[dinor2]

Originally Posted by NATIVEVAMAN

It just seems like there is something new every day to rid our tanks of the dreaded nitrate which is by far the least toxic of the big three.Liquids,powders,spo nge's and lets not forget the latest addition to the arsenal the coil denitrater (bio balls in a pipe lol)I still say take the money you would spend on that junk and buy live rock and sand and even add a refugium and they will take care of the problem on perminent basis.

I am curious to see what the experienced reefers would do in my case. In my refugium (or overflow box) I have a small amount of lr rubble, lots of pods and would like to add either cheato to this part of the overflow but now I'm wondering if it would be better to add a mini dsb in there and shoot, forget the name of the plant now. The really tall skinny plants that curl toward the top but need sand to live? Anyways, which one would benefit a 55gallon system more? I know both would help compete algae for nutrients in the water, is one better than the other?

Oh, btw, I have upped my water changes from 5gal/wk to 6gal/wk. The first week is already showing more improvement in water quality. Less algae growth already! Even though I have a good skimmer, it's cool to actually see such a big difference after changing out an extra gallon of water. Corals and fish all seem happy.

[Gohn]

Point taken Dale. lol. Of course I agree with Reno and yourself about points of good basic tank husbandry. If I come across a point someone brings up I sometimes take an academic approach of verbal exploration and interest to investigate but would never suggest one do anything to introduce to their main tank without lots of advice from the "community" of good folk here on RB and/or perhaps testing for the experience on a smaller tank for intellectual curiosity. Thanks for your feedback.