[ozzychas]

I have a 55 gal changing to a 90, my question is i know i'm going to use my rock just adding some more, but should i use my sand too its about 14 months old ,if so should i get more live sand, or just add substrate to it ,or both, should i clean it or leave it alone, because i will have to go through it to get snails and other stuff.
thanks!!!!!!

[spanko]

Here is the problem, if you use the old sand you will be stirring up uneaten food, fish poop, and other detritus when you take it out and possibly causing a massive ammonia spike if you put it into your new tank. For the most part the beneficial nitrifying bacteria in a sand bed reside in the top 1/8". That being so you are not gaining a lot by using your old sand other than the cost consideration. If that is a consideration I would wash the old sand thoroughly in buckets with a hose filling and overflowing the bucket so that the dirt and stuff floats out with the water overflowing, then lay the sand out to dry. When the sand is clean and dry then you can put it in the new tank and let it cycle.
If it were me I would buy new sand for the new tank and then just take a couple of cup fulls of the old sand to seed the new with, trying to get the cups off the very top of the old bed.

[wesley6610]

Originally Posted by ozzychas

I have a 55 gal changing to a 90, my question is i know i'm going to use my rock just adding some more, but should i use my sand too its about 14 months old ,if so should i get more live sand, or just add substrate to it ,or both, should i clean it or leave it alone, because i will have to go through it to get snails and other stuff.
thanks!!!!!!

I would use both your live rock and sand, but you need to be careful with your sand at least. Move the rock into a bucket full of tank water. You need to rinse your sand in fresh saltwater and mix it around so that you pour out stirred up organics that contain harmful sulfur. After you rinse the sand in a bucket, you can add it to the 90 gallon. Do the same with the new sand that your adding too!

[ozzychas]

ok let me ask you this ? i don't know if this is wrong but when i do a water change i use a gravel cleaning to suck up the sand from the bottom to the top it never changes the water perameters ,i do a water change every two weeks 18 gal on a 55 ,nitrate,ammonia,nitrite , everything is fine. so do you think my sand is that bad!!!!

[wesley6610]

In my opinion you are doing you tank a great dis-service. Reef tanks are not like freshwater, you do need to clean the substrate from time to time, but in sections and not the whole thing. Also, most people do it when it comes to DSB, not really on tanks under 3 inches of sand. Personally, I would reduce your substrate disruption a give it time to buildup before sectionally cleaning it again.

[spanko]

I believe in a DSB you should not do any stirring mixing or vacuuming as you stand to disturb the anaerobic zone and take the chance of releasing unwanted gases into the water column. Let me do some more research and I'll get back.

Okay I am back. Here is a small blurb on DSB's to help us understand.

The two primary zones that are the most useful to use are the aerobic zone and the anaerobic zone. In the aerobic zone, bacteria convert ammonia to nitrites and then into nitrates. The anaerobic zone has bacteria that convert nitrates into nitrogen gas or ammonium, which rise back up through the layers where the nitrogen gas is released and the ammonium becomes food for the aerobic bacteria once again. Also during this process phosphates are released from the detritus and, in a fully functioning DSB, used by the fauna and bacteria as they grow and multiply, thereby cycling the phosphates within the DSB.
Even though there are the two zones we are most concerned with it's important to note that in the absence of oxygenated water, a hydrogen sulfide zone will be created as well. Hydrogen sulfide is a very deadly substance that smells like rotten eggs when present. So long as this zone isn't disturbed it's nothing to be really concerned about, however if for some reason it does come too close to the surface or is otherwise disturbed then immediate action must be taken to remove it from the system. This can be achieved by a large water change and heavily oxygenating the wate

[spanko]

And some questions to Bob Fenner at WetWebMedia with his answers.

Crashing DSB System. HELP!!! 07/02/05
I've got a Deep Sand Bed set up in my refugium which I think is going to crash soon!!!
<... what?>
Setup: Sand bed is about 6-7 inches deep. Grain size is about 2mm. Macro algae on top of DSB for added filtration. Sand is put directly on bare bottom of tank. Where I live, DSB is not common. Thus, the 2mm sand is about the finest that I can get!!! I do get lots of tiny bubbles in the top layer of the sand, which means that it is working to a degree.
<Yes...>
Some background info first. I dismantled my tank when I shifted house 3 months ago. My previous setup was DSB with a plenum in the main tank. Being adventurous with my new setup, I removed the plenum, and went without. The sand from my previous setup is used. After being used for 5 years in the old set up, you can only imagine how dirty the sand was!!! Anyway, I cleaned the sand as best I could, and re-used it for the new setup.
<This can be a bit risky>
I think lot of featherworms were buried in the process, and I think that is one cause for my problem. Very quickly, the sand is now inhabited with worms and pods again.
<Ah, good>
Just 1 hour ago, I was harvesting some algae with roots 2 inches into the sand bed. When I pulled out the roots, the sand that came out with it was black!!! Hydrogen Sulphide!!!!
<Mmm, or other oxidized material...>
As a test, I syphon with a gravel cleaner deep right to the bottom of the tank in a few places. (I know, I am NOT supposed to disturb the sand bed...
but I am currently quite desperate!!!) Out came BLACK WATER!!! The smell confirms that I have Hydrogen Sylphid!!!
<You did the right thing by vacuuming, testing...>
I think it is not at a critical level yet ... as in the smell is weak, and the sand close to the glass looks white (only the middle portion is affected). I read somewhere that Hydrogen Sulphide is toxic only at a very high concentration, so I am safe for the moment. I remember reading somewhere long time ago which says to leave it alone, and it will go away.
<Mmm, actually, I don't agree here. I would continue to gravel vacuum the DSB when you're doing water changes>
I wonder if the roots of the macro algae has anything to do with this!!!
<Mmm, not much>
What do I do next?? Should I disconnect with the main tank? Should I dismantle the setup, and thoroughly clean the entire sand bed??? Should I just wait and see??
<I'd continue to gravel vac as mentioned, just keep your eye on your livestock...>
I was given the advice to scrap my DSB as my sand particle is too big for it to work . but if it is too big, why am I getting Hydrogen Sulphide in the first place???
<Don't fear the H2S... Bob Fenner>

[ozzychas]

again i'm still learning thanks for all your help ,but i'm still confused about the sand for my 90, should i use the sand from my old tank are get new,i will have fun trying to find all my snails and stuff maybe i'll just feed them they seem to come out then again thanks again!!
when its set up i'll post some picks

[wesley6610]

Originally Posted by spanko

I believe in a DSB you should not do any stirring mixing or vacuuming as you stand to disturb the anaerobic zone and take the chance of releasing unwanted gases into the water column. Let me do some more research and I'll get back.

Okay I am back. Here is a small blurb on DSB's to help us understand.

The two primary zones that are the most useful to use are the aerobic zone and the anaerobic zone. In the aerobic zone, bacteria convert ammonia to nitrites and then into nitrates. The anaerobic zone has bacteria that convert nitrates into nitrogen gas or ammonium, which rise back up through the layers where the nitrogen gas is released and the ammonium becomes food for the aerobic bacteria once again. Also during this process phosphates are released from the detritus and, in a fully functioning DSB, used by the fauna and bacteria as they grow and multiply, thereby cycling the phosphates within the DSB.
Even though there are the two zones we are most concerned with it's important to note that in the absence of oxygenated water, a hydrogen sulfide zone will be created as well. Hydrogen sulfide is a very deadly substance that smells like rotten eggs when present. So long as this zone isn't disturbed it's nothing to be really concerned about, however if for some reason it does come too close to the surface or is otherwise disturbed then immediate action must be taken to remove it from the system. This can be achieved by a large water change and heavily oxygenating the wate

Very good information, but I have just one comment to add. Even DSB can use some cleaning from time to time, not too often though. Small sectional cleaning that doesn't go too far down into the zones is okay, but we often get over zealous and release toxic levels into our water. DSB maintainence is very controversial, there is no one right way to care for them.

[jimw369]

Spanko! There are about 20 more articles on DSB in the RB Library and some very long threads discussing the very things you bring up.

Just in case you are interested in some more research!

On the subject of DSB...their is a million opinions. IMO a DSB is only as effective as the quality of marine husbandry the tank gets. In short, you run a crappy tank with algae in it and excessive nutrients (detritus) its only a matter of time until that sand doesnt do what its supposed to do. It will clog up and turn into chunks with no flow going thru the chunks of sand. These sand sifting critters we keep talking about only work to a certain point and thats pretty much on the surface. Ive helped tear down 3 tanks now. I wasnt impressed with the sand and how it came out in any of them.

[wesley6610]

Originally Posted by ozzychas

again i'm still learning thanks for all your help ,but i'm still confused about the sand for my 90, should i use the sand from my old tank are get new,i will have fun trying to find all my snails and stuff maybe i'll just feed them they seem to come out then again thanks again!!
when its set up i'll post some picks

IMO, I would use my old sand to seed my new sand and make the short cycle time reduced. Only after cleaning the sand before seeding the new tank.

[wesley6610]

Originally Posted by jimw369

Spanko! There are about 20 more articles on DSB in the RB Library and some very long threads discussing the very things you bring up.

Just in case you are interested in some more research!

On the subject of DSB...their is a million opinions. IMO a DSB is only as effective as the quality of marine husbandry the tank gets. In short, you run a crappy tank with algae in it and excessive nutrients (detritus) its only a matter of time until that sand doesnt do what its supposed to do. It will clog up and turn into chunks with no flow going thru the chunks of sand. These sand sifting critters we keep talking about only work to a certain point and thats pretty much on the surface. Ive helped tear down 3 tanks now. I wasnt impressed with the sand and how it came out in any of them.

Very well put Jim.

[spanko]

I agree Jim and Wes, the deep sand bed controversy is one in which I would not like to find out about first hand, especially in the DT. Perhaps in a fuge? In my display I run bare bottom with immense amounts of flow. (about 54X in a 29 biocube) This because of the need for SPS water conditions and the need to keep detritus suspended and or easily siphoned out at water change time. Check my thread here if you like. http://www.reefbuilders.com/forums/n...html#post82667 If I were to go back to a setup that sand was involved in I would keep it in the 1.5-2" range with lots of Nassarius and Cerith snails to keep it stirred.

[jimw369]

Originally Posted by spanko

I agree Jim and Wes, the deep sand bed controversy is one in which I would not like to find out about first hand, especially in the DT. Perhaps in a fuge? In my display I run bare bottom with immense amounts of flow. (about 54X in a 29 biocube) This because of the need for SPS water conditions and the need to keep detritus suspended and or easily siphoned out at water change time. Check my thread here if you like. http://www.reefbuilders.com/forums/n...html#post82667 If I were to go back to a setup that sand was involved in I would keep it in the 1.5-2" range with lots of Nassarius and Cerith snails to keep it stirred.

YEAH MAN! Some one that finally agrees me on a good tank set up!

Now, we might possibly add a remote DSB that has seperate chambers so that if the sand needs maintained or possibly changed out it can be done say 25% at a time without disrupting the system.
After seeing some tanks get tore apart if I feel the need for a DSB in the display I would definitely cure my rock outside the DT. That means its gone thru the initial cycle too. All the crap that dies off would not automatically wind up on or in the substrate of a brand new tank. Id have the snails and crabs clean it off before placing the rock in the DT also. IMO thats the first thing people (myself included) do wrong starting up a tank. All kinds of crap winds up all over and in the substrate the first month or two if you dont do it this way. All the jabber about detritus eating critters. Maybe they do a little but they create the crap as much as the eat it. Just a bad way to start the DSB.

Almost always the cyano shows up 3-6 mos down the road in these DSB tanks especially for first time reefers. It almost always starts on the sand bed where crap has consistently built up.

For me and my next tank its less and bigger sand in the display, higher flow, a Remote DSB and spotless bleached already cycled LR.

IMO Spanko and Wes nailed this one!!!!!!

[wesley6610]

Originally Posted by spanko

I agree Jim and Wes, the deep sand bed controversy is one in which I would not like to find out about first hand, especially in the DT. Perhaps in a fuge? In my display I run bare bottom with immense amounts of flow. (about 54X in a 29 biocube) This because of the need for SPS water conditions and the need to keep detritus suspended and or easily siphoned out at water change time. Check my thread here if you like. http://www.reefbuilders.com/forums/n...html#post82667 If I were to go back to a setup that sand was involved in I would keep it in the 1.5-2" range with lots of Nassarius and Cerith snails to keep it stirred.

I never considered a bare bottom DT tank for reefing, I use to for freshwater flowerhorns for the same reasons you just mentioned about water changes, interesting...

[jimw369]

OK Wes...Here ya go...Bare Bottom with T5 lights.

Im really thinking my next set up....Remote DSB....T5s....Bare Bottom...high flow...all the benefits of the DSB without any of the hassels or potential problems.

People really criticize the BB tanks because they are "ugly".


Whats your thoughts on the tank in the link?

Tank of the Month - December 2007 - Reefkeeping.com

[wesley6610]

Jim I am now a believer for sure, that tank looks great and didn't know the benefits of BB tanks. I don't think that they are ugly as much as I wonder about the cushion for the glass surface against the rock, but if I put my OCD aside, maybe my next tank will be BB. It will be a nano, but still BB all the same.

[jimw369]

Originally Posted by wesley6610

Jim I am now a believer for sure, that tank looks great and didn't know the benefits of BB tanks. I don't think that they are ugly as much as I wonder about the cushion for the glass surface against the rock, but if I put my OCD aside, maybe my next tank will be BB. It will be a nano, but still BB all the same.

The biggest issue for a BB tank is removing all organics (waste products etc.) With correctly paced high flow rates and a good maintanance regime the BB tanks are something to consider especially for sps and smaller bioloads.

[spanko]

In my tank the flow is directed such that the detritus accumulates in one corner of the tank. At water change I siphon off what it there. When I first started there seemed to be a lot, but as time has gone on there is a lot less. I also turkey baste the rock work every week at water change also. Again the amount that floats up into the water column seems to be less each week.

[e_baer]

This is a great thread! I am not a big fan of BB because of the look. But, if you like the look, then all is well.

[wesley6610]

I personally like natural and easy to maintainence, so if BB is a way to get the latter, but sacrifice the first, I will try it in a 29 nano next time I set up a tank and also attempt SPS. I'm sure I can find plenty of other useful reasons for BB and it may sway me to redo my 75 one day FAR in the future, lol.

[spanko]

I will add some more observations from my experiment with BB.

First if you look at my tank thread post #3 the first two pictures you can see the Coralline starting to grow on the bottom. I believe in time, when it actually cover it, it will look more natural. BB is definitely a look that you have to have grow on you over time because it does not look natural at first.

Second I have found that I do not clean the glass as often as I did with the setup in post #1. (you know that green film you get on the glass) Is this because I am exporting nutrients more efficiently? Again looking at post #3 you can see some at the margin along the bottom where the vertical glass meets the bottom. If I use my magfloat or my Nimble Nano on this it does not come off. That leads me to believe that it is actually green Coralline. I am about due for a re-aquascape to better position the plating montis to emulate the reef flat so I will do some aggressive scraping of it then.

[dinor2]

We interrupt this thread to bring an important question (or, I hope it is!)...

So, if I'm reading these posts correctly, when I do weekly water changes, I should syphon thru about 2 inches into my 4inch dsb a section at a time, per water change? I am very curious to learn more about maintaining the dsb as my tank is the classic case of what was just mentioned; made my sand bed a dsb less than 3 months ago, nitrates dropped and stayed at 0 since. HOWEVER, noticing that stinky rotten egg smell only during water changes and have that lovely cyano starting up on my sand only about a couple weeks ago, can't get it to go away. AND, it seems it is accumulating in a place where I've seen lots of detrius on the sand.

I'm doing a water change on Sunday so I'd love to know if I can use my gravel cleaner to go down close to 2 inches in this area to clean the sand out or if that's too deep to go down. (I do have 6 or 7 nassarius snails but, starting to think they're not keeping the top 2 inches stirred up as much as it needs...)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

[spanko]

Answered in your thread that doing the cleaning you are talking about should be okay. But the information that you are giving here is giving me a little different outlook and need some others to chime in here. The rotten egg smell is worrisome in that it would lead me to believe you have the hydrogen sulfide zone too close to the top of your sandbed and perhaps you are on the ragged edge of having not enough sand to accomplish a true DSB. Here is a quote from post #6:

Even though there are the two zones we are most concerned with it's important to note that in the absence of oxygenated water, a hydrogen sulfide zone will be created as well. Hydrogen sulfide is a very deadly substance that smells like rotten eggs when present. So long as this zone isn't disturbed it's nothing to be really concerned about, however if for some reason it does come too close to the surface or is otherwise disturbed then immediate action must be taken to remove it from the system. This can be achieved by a large water change and heavily oxygenating the water.

So the question in my mind now is how deep is your sandbed and if it is not deep enough and the hydrogen sulfide zone is "leaking" into the water column then the vacuuming you are talking about is a BAD idea.

[wesley6610]

Henry has a point and is why I think a lot of folks do the DSB remotely in a sump or fuge instead of their DT. Since it is in your DT, I would stop cleaning it right now until you/we can figure out what to do next and how best to go about clearing up the smell of Hydrogen sulfide.

Are your corals showing any signs of distress or fish not eating well? Is your skimmer working overtime or not at all when you smell this?